Camber has gone positive

-
CUDA69

CUDA69

FABO Gold Member
FABO Gold Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
705
Reaction score
136
Location
New Jersey
The camber was negative one degree. Now it is visibly positive on both wheels. The cam adjusters have not moved and the wheels has no play in it. Upper CA's are Firm Feel, 1.06 bars and Bilsteins. The car has 36,000 very hard miles on it (quarter miles passes, autocross and road courses).

It now has bump steer and feels like it has bias ply tires. We're running 255x45x17 Nittos on the street. Everything looks tight, the next step is to put a wrench on everything. If nothing is loose then I will start disassembling. The LCA's have not been boxed, if they fail does it affect camber?
 
I would be looking at the lower control arm pivot pin holes in the K member.......
 
It's strange that it's both side at the same time if it's something broken or worn out though. Sounds like the ride height was raised, or like the car didn't settle down after being jacked up and then put back on the ground. But if you've driven it that shouldn't be the case, same for if the torsion bar adjusters haven't been changed.

Was there any "event" that brought this on? Pothole, curb, Duke's of Hazzard style river crossing?

For it to have happened without any changes suggests something broken or loose, but like I said its weird that it would happen on both sides at the same time without some kind of event.
 
I will get under there tomorrow night and update the thread with any findings. I think it's time to pull everything apart for examination.
 
I took some of it apart last night, but did not check the toe. With the torsion bar pulled out and the sway bar disconnected, there is motion in and out at the LCA pivot. That would also affect the toe and the camber. The car had bump steer, that seemed to get worse over time. The LCA has to come out for a closer look. Is it possible to grind through a polyurethane bushing? It should be apart by Sunday afternoon.
 
Poly bushings have been known to deform. I haven't seen it myself, but that's why there are also Delrin and nylon LCA bushings being made now.

But given the history of the LCA sleeves failing in the K member, I would be pretty suspicious of those too.
 
CUDA69 said:
I took some of it apart last night, but did not check the toe. With the torsion bar pulled out and the sway bar disconnected, there is motion in and out at the LCA pivot. That would also affect the toe and the camber. The car had bump steer, that seemed to get worse over time. The LCA has to come out for a closer look. Is it possible to grind through a polyurethane bushing? It should be apart by Sunday afternoon.
Click to expand...

On my circle track cars, a poly lower bushing wouldn't make it 50 laps, it would be pounded out of shape and ruined. I found the stock rubber lowers were FAR more durable. We could run about a whole season on those.
 
Camber changes with ride height. If you messed with the adjusters or shifted the center of gravity, or significantly changed the front weight......either will do it
the ride height needs to be finalized before it goes to alignment.

If you did none of these, then there's a good chance your alignment guy messed up; that the turn plates were stuck and the suspension was not relaxed. Unless of course the alignment was thousands of miles ago.If the alignment was 36,000 miles ago, then I just messed up.
Then the helps above are right on. I need a beer...... waiter! ............Hey waiter!,,...........Man it's hard to get good help some days.... I said, waiter, I need a beer!
 
The LCA is spread open and the cylinder that holds the torsion bar has a lot of play. Two rough measurements show 0.100" on the torsion bar side and 0.125" on the post side. I guess that's why it has gotten worse over time. Back in 2002 I had not yet heard about the reinforcement plate upgrade. It's sounds like a good idea now, but both of these are shot. OK, next question: Who makes the best aftermarket LCA?
 

Attachments

  • Cuda_LCA1.jpg
    48.4 KB · Views: 392
  • Cuda_LCA2.jpg
    42.9 KB · Views: 389
HDK or Junior636 have tubular LCAs for coil overs. I installed a HDK on my Demon and it is nice. I had him change it a bit for my application.

I can sell you two used stock non tab LCAs if you want to go that route. They do not have plates.

BTW, the reinforcement plate goes on the bottom of the LCA and is to keep the two sides from opening apart. On the second pic that arm doesn't look too spread apart.


http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=332096

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=312749
 
Im not seeing anything in your picture that appears abnormal. Except maybe that lower control arm bushing. Maybe we need better pictures
 
You can fix the slop in those arms. They likely left the factory that way.

[ame]https://youtu.be/Nwes-SP8u4w[/ame]
 
Jim's right on, and that video is a great help if you're going to reinforce the LCA's. Only thing I would say about that though is that they very well might have left the factory like that, which means they might not be the cause of your recent camber issue. I would be sure to really check the LCA pivot mounts in the K frame, and pull those LCA pivots out of the LCA bushings to check the bushings as well.

For the LCA's you really only need the reinforcing plates, which are pretty cheap from PST if you don't feel like making a set (also not that hard). In addition to the reinforcing plates I add a strap to the end of the LCA to keep if from spreading, even with the reinforcing plates some spread is possible (although it takes a lot more force). This is the strap I add to mine, you just have to make sure that you don't make the LCA too tight so that the lever arm doesn't move freely, and of course you want to locate the strap so it doesn't interfere with the travel of the lever arm.

attachment.php


QA1 makes tubular LCA's, but I really don't think that they're a "must have" item. They use pretty much the same design as the old CAP LCA's, which is what I broke on my Challenger. That was a weld quality issue, but I still did some gusseting on the QA1 LCA's I bought for my Duster. I haven't run them yet though.
 
I ended up ordering QA1 LCA's with pivot mounts, Hotchkiss support struts and new lower ball joints from Summit. They arrive today and I should be able to get everything back together for the weekend. If the weather holds up maybe a test drive next week.
 
I'm just askin here, so don't shoot the messenger. Are you SURE 100% the camber is going positive? That is top of the tires pointing out away from the frame at the top?

I ask because the natural way for camber to fall over time through wear of parts or broken parts is negative, with the tops of the tires in towards the frame, since the weight of the car pulls them in that direction to begin with.

Just askin is all.
 
CUDA69 said:
I ended up ordering QA1 LCA's with pivot mounts, Hotchkiss support struts and new lower ball joints from Summit. They arrive today and I should be able to get everything back together for the weekend. If the weather holds up maybe a test drive next week.
Click to expand...

Man that's a lot of money to throw at a problem that you haven't positively ID'd yet. Hope it works out.

Have you checked the K frame to make sure the LCA pivot sleeves haven't broken loose? It would be a good time to reinforce those even if they aren't broken.

IMG_2790_zpsj1t3mbyg.jpg
 
I did not measure the camber. It looked like they were both leaning out to three people. The K frame on the passenger side looks good and the pivot bolts up tight. I will have the driver's side apart Saturday. That plate looks like a good idea though. The toe must have been way off because the tires were wearing on the outside edges. The LCA pivot was moving almost an 1/8" in the vice. The new ones don't move at all.

Two years ago we had the front end dialed in. It was tight and very responsive. Now you would think it had bias ply tires, the way it would move around. The only slop I can find is in the LCA's. Yeah, it is some bucks, but it does see a track day or two every year. I will update the thread when it's back on the road with a good alignment.
 
Positive camber will wear the outside edges. And since the tires are now acting like couch-casters, the car will want to self-steer; which would for sure feel awful.
The LCA "slop" is in the fore and aft direction, and IMHO, means nothing on a streeter. The alignment locates the ball joints. The upper is firmly located by the triangulated UCA. The lower is located by triangulation of the strut rod, and the inner pivot of the LCA. If the inner pivot was able to move transversly it could move the BJ in and out, affecting camber. But moving longtitudinally, it would have to move a very,very, long way to affect the camber, and only because the strut rod locates a bit inboard of the BJ.
About the only way for the camber to go positive(barring movement of the UCA bushings), is if the UCA is moving outboard, or the LCA is moving inboard. While both of these movements are possible, the more likely is the LCA,via worn out bushings.
As for me, it would take an awful lot of convincing for me to take the time to tighten up the fore/aft clearance.
Keep in mind that as the suspension moves up and down, the BJ moves fore and aft, because of its tether to the front via the strut-rod. So if you changed the ride height after the alignment it's very possible that changed the caster. Depending on where the caster started from and which way it went, that could affect the camber either way, but it would not be much in any case.
If your tires are worn conical, they will steer badly with a new alignment.
 
In hind sight, I should have measured the front end alignment first and not gone by a visual. Then the thread should have been titled "loose steering" or something like it. I appreciate all of the responses. I have another set of front wheels with good tires that will go on it after the alignment. The old tires are getting recycled.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top