1. toolmanmike

    toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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    What kind of numbers would it have? Inquiring minds want to know.
     
  2. danielr410

    danielr410 Active Member

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    What are your thoughts about summit 6901?
     
  3. Wyrmrider

    Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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    6901 I think I have posted on that elsewhere
    first depends on your build
    there was a foreign user that was looking at it, south america, decided to just go 4bbl andchange his oem timing chain
    It's an old Cam Dynamics grind now ground by Crane and most every copy cat grinder
    Elgin's may be more cost effective
    stock 340 grind may be more cost effective
    start a new thread in the regular area
    you can find it at other similar on page 2 of this thread
    you can get lots more area under the curve at the same duration
    if the durations and timing are what you need in the first place
    most likely not
     
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    • Wyrmrider

      Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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      toolmanmike posted in another thread
      Basic 273 cam specs: solids

      1965 180 hp 2 barrel .395 /.405 lift 240°/ 240° duration
      1965 235 hp 4 barrel .415 /.425 lift 248°/ 248° duration
      1966 235 hp 4 barrel .420 /.430 lift 248°/ 248° duration

      note -you can go to the Victory Library link above and look at Some of the DC/MP solid cams
      what is nice about MOPAR is that the duration method is the same for the stock cams and the MP/DC cams and is NOT just at some arbitrary lift
      MOPAR starts where the clearance ramp changes to the acceleration ramp
      so solid cams with different adjustment clearances are automatically taken care of
      .020 advertised or .050 - you cannot compare unless the tapped adjustment clearance is the same
      some aftermarket companies use SAE which is .006 at the valve- that you can compare and if you look hard you can find SAE for most MOPAR cams
      HOWEVER the timings given in the FSM and in the Victory listings are mostly useless except to compare one MOPAR cam with another- you can not even use them to set/ check the timing
       
      Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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      • Wyrmrider

        Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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        from another thread
        VooDoos are true Chrysler profiles, designed for the .904" tappets.
        That 213/.454" profile is about 5 or 6 degrees fatter at .200 than the Chevrolet one.

        UDHarold


        similar differences between flat flank and IR rollers


        `Following up on UDHarolds observation that the Mopar series gives more duration (flow) at .200 and my observation that I shorter seat may be utilized on builds that do not have compression maxed out
        Lunati 260 260/260 210/210 441"/.441" typical of universal (Chevrolet) grinds
        one size shorter seat Voodoo but more at .050 and more lift
        60401 256/262 213/220 .454'/.475"
        two sizes shorter seat Voodoo still more lift this is still a fatter lobe than the universal
        60400 250/256@ seat 208/213@.050 .454"/.454" valve lift,
        but would build more cylinder pressure- would close the intake about 5 degrees earlier than the universal-Chevrolet one All UDHarold designs so apples to apples

        As has been said you could use a 260 voodoo and get more horsepower
        but this version of optimization gives a fatter torque curve
        the 60400 and 60401 Voodoos were selected by Harold and his designs

        For you it's not the additional hp
        it's being able to run one size shorter cam and still have a little more hp while really picking of the get away experience

        You can do the same drill with IR vs Flat flank rollers
         
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        • Wyrmrider

          Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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          OK Hyd rollers
          Lets assume that careful analysis indicates that a 270 @ .006 duration is optimal
          I'm going to pick the lobe- the more radical may not be street, they may take more and more often spring changes


          First 3 Ultrdyne lobes
          Ultradyne UD Harold Lobes 1.5 rocker
          HR5 270 206 111 0.401
          HR27 271 217 138 0.516
          HR23 272 218 141 0.530

          Then 4 bullet lobes
          Bullet lobes lobe
          HR270/330 270 218 138 .3300 .000 CTS
          HR270/313 270 218 132 .3130 .000 CRA
          HR270/3175 270 212 130 .3175 .000 CTA
          HR270/2775 270 214 119 .2775 .000 CRA

          and some Inverse radius lobes- 3 268 lobes to compare with the flat flank 270 lobes if you wanted more Horsepower and then one size shorter seat and two sizes shorter seat
          ERH Series
          268 222 143 .340 .510
          264 218 149 .340 .510
          260 211 126 .316 .474


          HR series

          268 218 136 .325 .487
          268 210 126 .312 .469
          264 212 128 .310 .465
          260 210 132 .313 .469
          260 208 128 .327 .490

          note how well the .200 can hold up with the shorter seat durations
          If you get a custom cam from anyone be sure to get the optimum radicaliness for your use
          do not buy from the bottom of the catalog-

          UD Harolds comments are from
          Mopar stroker cam selection? Please help! - Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk
          Mopar stroker cam selection? Please help!

          you will notice how the .200 is more useful than .050 for power
          but again do not just specify the big number= it may be race only
          and seat timing for dynamic compression- low end punch
           
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          • Wyrmrider

            Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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            Adding Howard to the discussion of flat flank VS inverse Radius

            260 @.006 class
            bhr 260 207 123 .300 .450 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            bhr 262 209 127 .310 .465 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            EHR 260 211 126 .316 .474 Jones Inverse Radius
            HR 260 208 128 .327 .490 Jones Inverse Radius
            HR 260 210 132 .313 .469 Jones Inverse Radius
            BHR 266 213 133 .323 .485 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller


            .006 is comparable to Ultradyne and Bullet above
            Howard and Bullet have shorter lobes as necessary
            I try and look at the .200 and not chase the last few thou of lift
            which is more of a "mine is bigger than yours"
            and may require more spring

            270 @.006 class
            bhr 268 215 132 .313 .470 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            bhr 268 215 132 .333 .500 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            bhr 270 217 133 .310 .465 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            bhr 270 217 136 .323 .485 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller
            bhr 270 217 137 .330 .495 Howard BHR StandardRampHydraulicRoller

            HR 268 210 126 .312 .469 Jones Inverse Radius
            HR 268 218 136 .325 .487 Jones Inverse Radius
            ERH 268 222 143 .340 .510 Jones Inverse Radius

            AHR 269 219 143 .353 .5294 Howard AHR AggresiveRampHydraulicRoller

            no one is suggesting an aggressive ramp for a heavy valve conservative street build
            At least Howard breaks out their aggressive ramp series
             
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            • MOPAROFFICIAL

              MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Schneider cams has a 224@.050 .473 270 110 solid I used a couple times with great results in both the 273 with ported heads and a 'stretched to 340' 318 with mildly ported 273 heads w/1.88s that made 305hp by 5400 and 375tq@3800-4200
              The 273 had a ton more torque and a very broad range. A great small solid cam to run around with.
               
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              • Wyrmrider

                Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                I may have posted this before from some of my old notes

                Mopar is very consistent on how they measure cams
                they take the blueprint point of where the clearance ramp meets the acceleration ramp and subtract 4 degrees from the opening side and 4 degrees from the closing side
                The height of the clearance ramp therefore makes no difference
                Turns out this gives close to .008 but varies
                you could do this same drill with Racer Brown or Engle who use .008
                The chart is both opening and closing so not perfect for asymetrical cams where the close would be longer than the opening to minimise valve bounce

                340 Cam 268 208 closes 66 ABDC 114LCA 60 intensity
                DC 268 cam 228 closes 62 ABDC 110LCA 40 intensity
                DC 280 cam 238 Closes 66 ABDC 110 LCA 42 intensity
                DC 284 Cam 241 Closes 70 ABDC 108 LCA 43 intensity
                DC 292 Cam 248 Closes 74 ABDC 108 LCA 44 intensity

                for all those that recommend advancing the 340 cam 4 degrees the MP 268 cam gives you a much fatter lobe and you can go to the 280 and close the intake about the same place
                I do not see my notes for the DC 260 or 248
                 
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                • Wyrmrider

                  Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                  • MOPAROFFICIAL

                    MOPAROFFICIAL FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    @Old vc

                    You hit the X on me for stating a fact that a factory magnum rocker ratio is 1.6.

                    You're wrong.

                    A message to all those who hit the X ..
                    If you hit the x.... YOU BETTER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT and you basically suck imo.
                    If you hit the x AND don't even have a rebuttal ... you double suck and really..what are you doing here.
                     
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                    • Wyrmrider

                      Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                      Thumper
                      Cams in the Thumper intake durations ranges from Comp, Lunati, Howard, Hughes etc @.006
                      Some Factory.Engle and MP cams converted to .006
                      with some suggestions by readrs
                       
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                      • Wyrmrider

                        Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                        Mopar Cam- how many more degrees @.006 to equal at .200?
                        This thread tries to show how much .200 duration (a proxy for power cyl fill)
                        you loose using a .942 cam in a mopar
                        and gives alternatives

                        you will find it can take an additional 20 degrees seat duration
                        thats like retarding 8 degrees
                        (then illuminarti recommend advancing these cams 4 degrees) timing is FUBAR
                        and there goes your dcr, low end, idel,gasmileage expansion ratio by opening the ex early

                        340 cam specs?
                        finely gets to discussing 340 cam in 318
                         
                        Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
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                        • volaredon

                          volaredon Well-Known Member

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                          ok... looking at these numbers in the posts my head is spinning....
                          another 318-cam Q. 78 Sport Fury, 318, 904, 2.76. warm weather daily driver/ cruiser.
                          want to wake it up a bit "off the line" So far dead stock OEM except for true duals.
                          car has 53k original miles I am 2nd owner, Ive had since 2007.
                          don't want to get too crazy with it still want the wife to be able to jump in and go as she can with it being stock. just with a bit more oomph. I still have yet to delete the Lean Burn, have all parts needed here for that.
                          I did put an Edelbrock True Roller timing chain in when I did the water pump, just afraid of the original nylon toothed POS at 40 years old. I have an old Offenhauser alum 4 barrel here and a Performer intake (not RPM)
                          also have a set of fresh from the machine shop, 302 heads. All 16 valves are brand new, along with guides as needed (I forget how many guides he did, may have been all exhausts??? Need to dig out the bill)
                          I want to put a slight cam in that will actually work in here to do what I am asking, along with those 302 heads and either a TQ or a carterbrock 9511 (500 cfm) or a 9626 (have all on hand)

                          1st 2 cam choices (because they are here, and that don't mean I "Have to" use either)
                          Stock 360 cam (dead ringer for COMP 252 except 0.015" less lift) I used one of these in a 318 LA that I also put a std Performer on, new EQ Magnum heads and Hooker Super Comps at the same time. That was in a D250 that was USED as a truck, hauling/towing, the whole bit... huge improvement from stock but that truck also had 3.55s and taller tires

                          COMP 260 would this be too big for the 318? My son ran this one in a 360 for ~5k miles then pulled the engine back out and apart for a mystery oil eating issue, wound up putting a stroker crank in it and turning into a 408, and went with machine shop suggestion for the now larger engine

                          I have heard of the Comp 256, would have to scope that one out.... might be a possibility

                          I put the 248(?) in a short bed D100 w/a '69, 318 Edelbrock "Streetmaster 318" and a 625 AFB/ and a 833 OD and 3.91s years ago as I was "afraid of" the 252 being "too big" way back then.... probably would have been fine. did the "pick a cam and back up 1" in the catalog I was gun shy at the time, because the previous 318 to that was a 77 motor in a '75 Cordoba, all stock except a 4 barrel and (I forget the rest of the specs) an Erson cam (back in the "Super Shops" days) that as I remember (hey that was the 80s, memory is fading) was a .429/.444 cam of I forget what duration, etc that was a total slug. Lots of noise no go.....

                          have also thought of sending that stock 360 cam that I have to Oregon Cams for a "touch up" and slight grind, as that one too, is used. when I did the one in the 83 D250, mentioned above, I bought a new Melling 360-2bbl "stock replacement" and used the magnum heads' 1.6 RR which won't be the case this time. Found one new in box for like $80, but that was 10 years ago.....
                          I only got thru 1/2 of this thread previous to adding my post as I have to let my head stop spinning from all the numbers presented to that point....

                          so to recap/// want to warm up a 53k original mile 318 in a 78 2 dr Fury (B body) and want to know which cam to use with that short block + 302 heads+ one of the intakes I have on hand+ one of the carbs I have on hand...
                          May eventually consider a gear swap from the 2.76 (I don't think 2.94 would be enough of a noticeable change) so looking to go 3.08 (yes these are available for the 8-1/4 since the square body Cherokee days) or (at most) 3.21. But that's a ways down the road, will stay with the original 2.76s "for now"

                          right now the car is a bit more doggy than I like but it loves cruising the highway at 70 and is great on gas in doing so.... I don't mind sacrificing "a little bit" of the "good on gas" to get what I want.
                           
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                          • volaredon

                            volaredon Well-Known Member

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                            can a mod here do me a favor? Break off that last post into its own thread? I mistakenly thought "tagging it along" with a sticky that is relevant was the way to go but Ive had PMs asking me to split it off....
                            and let mw say that looking at the numbers in the past posts in this sticky trying to figure out the "right cam for me" is making my head spin
                             
                          • toolmanmike

                            toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                            I will leave it for now. There is 6 pages of information and thoughts about the subject. Your post is more information.
                             
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                            • Wyrmrider

                              Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                              From the cam reveal thread
                              here are some similar duration cams to his fine for him choice of Engle K52

                              HM2103219A .483. .322 257 210 130@20 Howard-quite a bit faster ramps This is a bigger cam but I think shortest Howard shelf .904 cam
                              Hughes .473 .320 206 hug rejected cuz they push the envelope too hard I will not buy a cam with no seat durations too many variables
                              Voodoo.....454. 302 253 208 Voodoo 700 bout the same LCA different?
                              K-52HYD .458" .305" 254° 209° (did no one notice that Engle is at .008 like MP and Factory and Racer Brown- gotta adjust folks more like a 260 cam but a good one)
                              Jones........ 461 .305 256@ 202 128@ 200 actual seat is quite a bit shorter - see duration at .004 below .002 duration is shortest of everything on this page except MAYBE the Crane)
                              .842 ..........458 .305 272@ 216 with same lift note the extra duration it takes to get similar lobe (anyone think that 6 degrees does not make a difference)
                              .842 ..........434 .289 256@ 200 with same duration much less area
                              xe 256H ......447 .299 256 212 intake close 54 ABDC w/ 110LCA all the 256@.006 w/110 lca are going to close about the same for DCA use (Jones and Crane are shorter actual seat to seat)
                              Summit 6400.444 ,296 280 214 Edelbrock 288SAE .004 For comparison Jones is 264 @.004 24 degrees longer seat and less lift what's not to like
                              Crane H202 .432 .288 260@.004 202 113@200 Shortest Crane .904 H2 series also good wearing cam shorter than the Engle or Jones
                              Bullet..........432 .288 254 206 120@.050

                              some notes
                              Me personaly only use the fast ramp cames
                              the Howard, Hughes, Comp with lighter 11/32 valves and beehive springs
                              I know for a fact that the Mike Jones " motorhome" cam was designed for the even heavier than stock BBM Motorhome valves and it wears extremely well even with these
                              Youu can pick up some rpm with lighter valves and springs and alonger exhaust-peronal observation
                              Engle also has a big nose and wears well
                               
                              Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
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                              • toolmanmike

                                toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                FYI, I have ran a dozen or so cams on the dyno program and although they aren't the most accurite, The mild cams were all about the same as far as HP and torque on a basic stock teen.
                                 
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                                • toolmanmike

                                  toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                  The biggest cam I tested (staying below 230° duration) is the Hughes Whiplash #SMC1326AL 213/226° .480/.516 cl 109°. It produced good numbers but it is on the ragged edge for a stock converter.
                                   
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                                  • Krooser

                                    Krooser Reform School Graduate

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                                    Charles @ Camcraft cams offers some good grinds for early A engines as well as a 340 cam.

                                    Great guy to deal with...he offers a wealth of knowledge and is a racer himself.

                                    camcraftcams.com
                                     
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                                    • toolmanmike

                                      toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                      Earlier in this thread there was mention of a Mike Jones cam for 318's.
                                       
                                    • Valiant696

                                      Valiant696 Member

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                                      Well, I'm late to this conversation, but have spent the last two days reading through all of it. My question is: what does everyone think of the stock 360 2bbl cam in a 318? I didn't see anyone mention it on here. It has a little more duration and lift than the stock 318 cam. The overlap is a little more too. Looks like the intake closes 6 degrees later than the 318 cam per my 1973 Plymouth and Chrysler service manual. It seems that if it worked that great then Chrysler would have put the same cam in both engines. I have a 1986 318 2bbl in a D150 that has a flat lobe on the cam. It has the 302 heads so it has a little more compression than the earlier models. If I can get a little more performance from that 360 cam I would buy it vs. buying a stock 318 cam. I like the spec's on the Lunati 10200700 and Howards CL711381-10 cams though replacing the valve springs is out of my budget. I'm hoping that someone here has already done this and can tell me if they like it or not. 20201203_234910.jpg
                                       
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                                      • RustyRatRod

                                        RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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                                        People who hit the X with no rebuttal are pussies.
                                         
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                                        • moparmat2000

                                          moparmat2000 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                          Melling SPD-22 ?
                                           
                                        • YY1

                                          YY1 Well-Known Member

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                                          @Valiant696

                                          You sure your '86 is not a roller cam engine?
                                           
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