Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Back side of ignition switch
Can someone help? I need to drive my dart tomorrow
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Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
The connection with the two wires spliced into one connection on the switch according to the schematic from a few posts ago should have a single brown wire. In this case it’s a blue with white stripe wire and I believe a wire that seems to be a shade of maybe green? The connection with the brown wire color wise also looks incorrect
Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Did a little research. These two connections are in the wrong position and should be reversed. Could this be my problem?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
^^You can answer your own question. What do you have for a shop manual / wiring diagram? If not, go to MyMopar and download one
65 Plymouth service manual from this page
MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Service Manuals
A snippet out of the manual.. Rotate your switch so the photo matches the switch layout. The bottom terminal in the drawing is the "ignition run." The one at 3 O'clock marked "IGN2" is the (brown) coil bypass circuit. This is one wire, goes direct from IGN2 .....through the bulkhead......to the coil + side of the ballast.
65 Plymouth service manual from this page
MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Service Manuals
A snippet out of the manual.. Rotate your switch so the photo matches the switch layout. The bottom terminal in the drawing is the "ignition run." The one at 3 O'clock marked "IGN2" is the (brown) coil bypass circuit. This is one wire, goes direct from IGN2 .....through the bulkhead......to the coil + side of the ballast.
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67Dart273
Well-Known Member
This should be one of the FIRST things you do / did. They are very troublesome in these cars. For a little reading on the subject, read this article: (There are those that think this strategy is incorrect and there are OTHER ways to skin that cat, but the fact is this is ONE way to deal with the problem
Catalog
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
When I suggested running a wire from the alternator to the starter relay stud/ battery, that is a "quick way" to bypass a lot of trouble IE the "MAD BYPASS" in the referenced article.
Frankly my friend, "fixing" this is probably not the way to deal with it. I would SERIOUSLY be thinking of either rewiring the car with an aftermarket harness or looking for either used / good condition or "repop" factory harness.
Also, you have enough trouble going on here that you REALLY need to seek local help. What you need is the "virtual me" (or a guy like Maddox) that is local and can drop over there
Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your thoughts. I will do what I believe is best and I will FIX this situation I am dealing with.
Morning! Yes!
If those are backwards that would explain why the voltage was approx. 6 volts on the regulator side and about 10 volts on the coil side when the switch was in the 'run' position.
Assuming the switch works internally, putting the connections right will correct this issue.
ps. It looks like new switches are available, probably can get it locally if your prefer. A new one will should solve the need for the starter button. Because of the way the button is wired to the relay, its possible the relay is bad, so leave the button on until sure the relay is working. Standard Motor Parts US50, or Airtex/Wells 1S6151
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Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Ok I switched the two wires on the ignition switch. The car now starts with the key every time. Also the voltage at the regulator is now about 12 or 13 volts. Seemed to be charging fine. Except...the regulator started smoking while running. I pulled the cover off and the contacts are touching when the engine is off. When engine is on, the contact is against the magnet side and it won’t move off of that point. This is keeping the voltage at the battery at 12.7 and it will not go positive from there. Have to trace some more wires and see what’s going on
Nice. You're making progress. 
Lets see where those extra wires come from.
Smoking could have been dirt or damage, or just burning off a bit manufacturing finish because this is the first time it (the electromagnet and resistors) have really heated up. Look for signs of excess heat to get an idea of whether this was normal breaking in smoke or high resistance or current issue.
Depending on the alternator and idle speed, 12-13 Volts may be close to normal. The tests for VR operations and alternator outputs are usually done around 1250 rpm. There's a second VR test done at 2000 rpm if I recall correctly. IF the voltage does not come up to the low spec at 1250 rpm, then maybe the spring tension needs adjustment. Edit, For the lower rpm test (1250) put some load on it (headlights or heater fan), for the higher rpm, no load. Also check the points for signs of burning and that they are smooth and flat, and check the gap.
Lets see where those extra wires come from.
Smoking could have been dirt or damage, or just burning off a bit manufacturing finish because this is the first time it (the electromagnet and resistors) have really heated up. Look for signs of excess heat to get an idea of whether this was normal breaking in smoke or high resistance or current issue.
Depending on the alternator and idle speed, 12-13 Volts may be close to normal. The tests for VR operations and alternator outputs are usually done around 1250 rpm. There's a second VR test done at 2000 rpm if I recall correctly. IF the voltage does not come up to the low spec at 1250 rpm, then maybe the spring tension needs adjustment. Edit, For the lower rpm test (1250) put some load on it (headlights or heater fan), for the higher rpm, no load. Also check the points for signs of burning and that they are smooth and flat, and check the gap.
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Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Well, the field wire is now getting zero volts on the ALT and the VR. Like I said it seemed to be working then it smoked and hasn’t worked since. With the key off, the contacts on the VR stay open. As soon as the VR receives power with the key on, the contacts close. With the key on if I manually open the contacts, the field wire gets 12 volts
Thought this was almost fixed, starting to get frustrated
Thought this was almost fixed, starting to get frustrated
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It was only a suggestion, do what you want. From some of what you have posted that harness seems to have been hacked up pretty good. Sometimes "diminishing returns"
This sounds like a bad regulator. Kinda "the way it works" is that as voltage goes up the increasing voltage pulls the relay in, pulling the contacts open and dropping field current. Look underneath, there is a big resistor. When the contacts are open, the resistor reduces field current.
The replacement regulators are almost universally solid state. You can tell instantly by looking at the bottom. There is no large resistor(s) on a solid state replacement
Your electro-mechanical VR should look like this. A modern replacement will not have those resistors
Before you replace the VR it might be a fair idea to check the field current draw. There's a procedure in the shop manual
Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
67dart273 I really do appreciate your time and advice in this thread. You are right, my VR looks exactly like the one in your picture you posted. Besides the few extra wires, my harness seems to be mostly intact as it was originally. The push button start was added most likely to bypass the ignition switch because it was wired incorrectly. There is a brown wire by the valve cover that I don’t know what it is for although it runs with the insulation that all other wires by the valve cover are with. The Petronix is going to the ballast resistor which it really doesn’t need to be, same with the tach wire. The red wire off of the battery that is loose under the dash is most likely for a radio since it is fused and the car has 6x9 and cut outs in the doors for speakers, but no stereo head unit
I’m still in the process of tracing certain wires and cleaning connections as you guys have said. I will take your advice for the VR and probably replace it and do the field test you recommended as well
I’m still in the process of tracing certain wires and cleaning connections as you guys have said. I will take your advice for the VR and probably replace it and do the field test you recommended as well
Engine running or not?
You can replace with a solid state unit replacement as 67Dart273 mentioned - go back to BillGrissom's post about finding a good replacement. I use Standard's VR 128 which doesn't have the same housing but is pretty reliable.
As far as zero volts on the field wire, that's kindof how it works, it grounds out in the lower position. But I *think* if it was working correctly it should have been a higher than than zero because of the resistor.
Two ways you can further verify if its actually broken. One is to examine it; for broken wires, damaged points and resistance/continuity. If the fusible wire to the grounding resistor is burned, its done.
If everything is intact with no obvious damage, then you could test it..
Have the engine running at 1250 rpm and put load (headlights & fan) on it. The contact arm should then switch to the middle and upper positions.
If it works, then adjust the tension from spring and gap to the correct voltage.
The lower contact and middle will be used when there is little power being used and higher rpm. Turn the lights off and bring the engine to 2200 rpm.
Voltage specs for the VR vary a little with temperature. The specs for the mechanical regulator are 13.5 Volts and 14.5 Volts (at 70 deg F ).
Sounds like good detective work on the red hot. Lets get the other two figured out.. If you think you know where the other end goes but can't see the middle, disconnect the battery and use the meter for a continity test.
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The regulator feeds +voltage to alt to energize it?
Or it uses ground to energize?
Or it uses ground to energize?
These regulators control positive (feed) to alternator's field.
Ok, thought i was missing something. The last older mopar i was working on was converted to the newer system for a reason.
Upgrading an already hacked electrical system in that case was necessary.
Upgrading an already hacked electrical system in that case was necessary.
There was probably a little more going on than just the reversed between IGN 1 & 2. As best we can tell, the modifications were working OK until the other night. I'm not saying it was good design, but it worked and now it doesn't. So we're missing something(s).
That's not a bad location for the Petronix. At least its switched on/off with the ignition switch. If it drew a lot of current (like an MSD does) it would eventually be a problem, but my guess is that it doesn't. (There are 3 versions of Petronix. If you want to check on power needs, see if you can ID which version it is.)
Tach wire. Depends on the brand and model. I'm only familiar with the ones that use a pulse off of the coil negative. Look at what tach you have and we can look up how it should be wired.
Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
Ok the brown wire that was unidentified alongside the valve cover has now been traced. It is actually a grey wire that travels with the green, purple, two blue, and black wires. It is for the oil pressure switch which is no longer in action because an aftermarket mechanical gauge is being used
OK. If its for a low pressure switch, then it may carry full voltage or may be 5 Volts because of an instrumention voltage regulator. Either way, hook it back up - even if the switch is dead, or cover the connector real well and secure it. Don't want those hot loose ends touching ground.
The odd thing to me is you measured 6 Volts on it before. But for now I'm not too concerned about it. I'm pretty sure you're correct and don't think it was being used as a jumper or anything.
Shaun65dart
Well-Known Member
ITS FIXED!!
Went to autozone for some electrical cleaner and asked how much a VR was. They said 18 bucks and they had it in stock. I figured what the hell why not
Before I installed the VR I spent about 2 hours cleaning up the wires. I removed the bulkhead fitting and cleaned everything. I cut out and replaced the wires that were frayed or exposed. I reinsulated the wires along the valve cover. Removed the coil and cleaned and changed the mounting location slightly. I then hooked up the VR and I also have a fused light I hooked up that was already in the engine compartment.
It now runs at about 13.5 volts and maxes out at no more than 14.4. I want to thank you guys for your help and understanding with this. I have learned a lot and will continue to update the electrical system on my dart. Thanks!
Went to autozone for some electrical cleaner and asked how much a VR was. They said 18 bucks and they had it in stock. I figured what the hell why not
Before I installed the VR I spent about 2 hours cleaning up the wires. I removed the bulkhead fitting and cleaned everything. I cut out and replaced the wires that were frayed or exposed. I reinsulated the wires along the valve cover. Removed the coil and cleaned and changed the mounting location slightly. I then hooked up the VR and I also have a fused light I hooked up that was already in the engine compartment.
It now runs at about 13.5 volts and maxes out at no more than 14.4. I want to thank you guys for your help and understanding with this. I have learned a lot and will continue to update the electrical system on my dart. Thanks!
Awsome.
Now, if you want to hook up your ammeter, you can if the post is OK. I know Bill thought it looked OK but you're there, we're not. It's a useful tool, just make sure its connections are clean and solid. If you hook it up, two tests for good circuit will be to; feel for heat, and/or measure voltage drop. In both cases, it has to be done when the meter shows power is flowing through - such as headlights on, engine off.
If there's no heat, and no measurable votlage drop with 10-15 amps going through it, its fine. Check again in a few weeks to make sure nothing has loosened up.
Now, if you want to hook up your ammeter, you can if the post is OK. I know Bill thought it looked OK but you're there, we're not. It's a useful tool, just make sure its connections are clean and solid. If you hook it up, two tests for good circuit will be to; feel for heat, and/or measure voltage drop. In both cases, it has to be done when the meter shows power is flowing through - such as headlights on, engine off.
If there's no heat, and no measurable votlage drop with 10-15 amps going through it, its fine. Check again in a few weeks to make sure nothing has loosened up.
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