can you believe it? another torsion bar question?? 1.03" vs 1.08"

kiyoshi

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Yes. Before you ask, yes, I looked. In fact being autistic.. I've probably spent far too many DAYS total researching this... but just can't come to a solid conclusion. So lets cut to the chase:

'64 valiant with 5.9 360 in it. Planning on tracking/ time attack eventually. Most information I see on here is either regarding drag, autocross, or daily. I feel none of these are EXACTLY what I'll be doing. Will I (unofficially) drag? Maybe a bit. Will I daily? Yes. Track events/ time attacks? Yes. Autocross? No. I've daily'd quite "harsh" cars before so I'm not overly concerned with ride quality, as I'm sure it won't be worse than some of my other more track dedicated cars in the past.

I am TORN between the p-s-t 1.03" and the swayaway 1.08". I've seen all the happy customers swearing by p-s-t, and see that BAC recommends starting at 1.08" for a performance feel. Best I can find, based off swayaway's site information, 1.03" are roughly 242 lb/in while 1.08" are 292lb/in so really not a huge difference there.

So... here's the issue... my brain keeps saying get 1.08"s. Swayaway is local, and would come out to just under $400 after tax. P-S-T offers a 10% discount so those would come out to around $300. Given the larger motor etc, will the 1.03" still cut it or should I increase to the 1.08"s.... or even larger if it's recommended(doubtful)?

Ugh.... please help guide my brain... I know everyone says can't beat p-s-t's price but something is just stabbing my brain saying I should get the 1.08"s instead. Would LOVE some input to put this idiotic mind to rest

-kiyoshi
 

kiyoshi

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also just as an aside, it was nice to find out recently about the degree of clocking both companies do so as to retain ride height etc in relation to the original zero clocked design. cool little mental note for me to remember.

-kiyoshi
 

TT5.9mag

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For a serious time attack car, and a heavy one at that, you’re probably going to want a bar even more stiff than that. And guys that are very serious in time attack have multiple setups so you might want to have a few pairs of bars to tune for different surface conditions.
 

kiyoshi

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For a serious time attack car, and a heavy one at that, you’re probably going to want a bar even more stiff than that. And guys that are very serious in time attack have multiple setups so you might want to have a few pairs of bars to tune for different surface conditions.

this is exactly (not) what I wanted to hear! :D .... seriously though damnit lol. I was somewhat hearing this as well... seeing some later a bodies run 1.12"s, I can't remember his name but the pfp is a mesh wheel and has been on multiple torsion bar thread replies. Very detailed replies as well from what I remember

-kiyoshi
 

kiyoshi

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exactly the one I was thinking of, and in fact a little scared to utter his name given the numerous amount of times he's had to go over this with other's lol.

swayaway also makes a 1.14 and 1.2, but I don't think I'll want to deal with the 1.24"s... maybe by that point just have welded on some sway bar ears to the lca's and run sways to help take some of that load off the torsion bars. I saw another in roughly the same boat as me who's travel was maxed out on the torsion adjusters and was still super low. I'm hoping the 1.08"s will help to pick the 360 back up off the ground.

Also side note sorry, based on the chart I have:

1.09 300#/in P5249154 oval track 1/4 mi--optional 1/2 mi
1.14 300#/in P5249155 oval track 1/4 and 1/2 mile *

Is that second one incorrect? I meant if a 1.09 is 300# spring rate, shouldn't the 1.14" be a stiffer rate? Something closer to 350-360?

-kiyoshi
 

MopaR&D

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I have sway-a-way 1.14" bars in my Duster (avatar pic). It is intended primarily for track use. The ride is firm but not really any firmer than your typical late-model import sedan. At that stiffness though you need some wide grippy front tires to take advantage of it or it'll just understeer all over the place. I previously had 1.00" bars which were too soft once I upgraded to the current wheel/tire combo, it would hit the bump stops in really hard cornering. But once I put the 1.14" bars in I had to dial in more camber (went from basically zero to -2.0°) to keep it from under steering. It has a pretty nice neutral feel in the corners now. Car also has Hellwig front and rear sway bars with the rear being adjustable and it's on the stiffest setting, also running Hotchkis leaves in the rear. It handles really nicely except in quick back-and-forth stuff (slalom) because the shocks are just stock replacement junk and have way too low of a damping rate to control the wheels.

So in summary, from my experience 1.08" or bigger will work fine but to get the most out of them you need good shocks and wide grippy tires. And stiffened up rear suspension so it doesn't understeer like crazy.
 

TT5.9mag

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Regardless of what torsion bars you end up with you will most definitely want to run, at the very least, a front sway bar.
 

MopaR&D

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Regardless of what torsion bars you end up with you will most definitely want to run, at the very least, a front sway bar.

I honestly think a rear away bar is a necessity on these cars. They are very understeer-prone and it really takes a lot to make them oversteer. I know a lot of old-timers warn about spinning out with a rear away bar but I think that only applies if you're running stock skinny rear tires and haven't stiffened up the front suspension at all.

Most things I assumed about "good handling" from reading what most people on here have said were blown out of the water once I actually went to the track and pushed my car past its limits. Having low body roll in cornering does not equate to strong lateral grip and unfortunately that's what most guys assume. It all has to work together as a system. Leaving the rear suspension stock and soft but adding thick torsion bars and a front sway bar will make it feel flatter in the corners but the car will actually understeer worse when it's pushed than with stock soft front suspension.
 

kiyoshi

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I have sway-a-way 1.14" bars in my Duster (avatar pic). It is intended primarily for track use. The ride is firm but not really any firmer than your typical late-model import sedan. At that stiffness though you need some wide grippy front tires to take advantage of it or it'll just understeer all over the place. I previously had 1.00" bars which were too soft once I upgraded to the current wheel/tire combo, it would hit the bump stops in really hard cornering. But once I put the 1.14" bars in I had to dial in more camber (went from basically zero to -2.0°) to keep it from under steering. It has a pretty nice neutral feel in the corners now. Car also has Hellwig front and rear sway bars with the rear being adjustable and it's on the stiffest setting, also running Hotchkis leaves in the rear. It handles really nicely except in quick back-and-forth stuff (slalom) because the shocks are just stock replacement junk and have way too low of a damping rate to control the wheels.

So in summary, from my experience 1.08" or bigger will work fine but to get the most out of them you need good shocks and wide grippy tires. And stiffened up rear suspension so it doesn't understeer like crazy.

I.... wow.. this was exactly what I needed to hear.. and I believe I've seen this reply from you in a couple other places. I remember specifically the sway kit name and honestly coming from certain drift/grip setups, 2 degrees of camber is NICE. I could take that.

I would love to run a wider setup up front but I'm already running in to some rubbing issues that have got me a bit stumped, so I'm very quickly trying to figure that out. Would love to tuck maybe a 215 or 225 or larger depending on how much more clearance I'll be able to figure out. I come from tracking miatas and some older porches and drifting 240sx/ae86/rx7's so ride quality should be all good from what you were saying. Shocks right now are just the 3 way adjustable comp engineering but already saving for some bilsteins/ looking in to others. Also looking in to upgraded leaf packs, probably just the mopar hd's or something similar


The sway bars are definitely something I want to be adding but kind of and in a fun way I would love to take it out to a track once without them and then again after install just to really see the difference. Everything in steps I guess.

Thank you again seriously

-kiyoshi
 

kiyoshi

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"Having low body roll in cornering does not equate to strong lateral grip" how do i extra bold highlight italic font size 800 this?

-kiyoshi
 

MopaR&D

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I.... wow.. this was exactly what I needed to hear.. and I believe I've seen this reply from you in a couple other places. I remember specifically the sway kit name and honestly coming from certain drift/grip setups, 2 degrees of camber is NICE. I could take that.

I would love to run a wider setup up front but I'm already running in to some rubbing issues that have got me a bit stumped, so I'm very quickly trying to figure that out. Would love to tuck maybe a 215 or 225 or larger depending on how much more clearance I'll be able to figure out. I come from tracking miatas and some older porches and drifting 240sx/ae86/rx7's so ride quality should be all good from what you were saying. Shocks right now are just the 3 way adjustable comp engineering but already saving for some bilsteins/ looking in to others. The sway bars are definitely something I want to be adding but kind of and in a fun way I would love to take it out to a track once without them and then again after install just to really see the difference. Everything in steps I guess.

Thank you again seriously

-kiyoshi

I took @72bluNblu 's lead and was able to fit 255-wide 26" tall front tires on 18x9 Mustang wheels with '73-up front disc brake setup. No rubbing whatsoever. My old tires were 215s but 27" tall and they occasionally rubbed. The height of the front tires affects clearance more than the width. IIRC he's running 275-wide front tires on his Duster but had to add some thin wheel spacers to keep them from rubbing. I can't remember the aspect ratio of my tires, I want to say 40 but I do remember they are Continental ExtremeContact DWS-06

EDIT: I'm also able to fit 275-wide rears on 18x10 wheels since I swapped to a B-body 8 3/4" rear end from a 1967 Coronet. I had to roll (smash with a sledgehammer lol) the rear fender lips and they still rub a tad in certain situations but it works well.
 

kiyoshi

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excuse me while I go choke on air while reading that.... ahem.... TWO FIFTY FIVE'S?? granted that is a later year but DAMN.... hats off to you for getting that under there holy cow lol

also 275's?!?! that's just... i got some thread/pic searching to do >:)

-kiyoshi
 

MopaR&D

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excuse me while I go choke on air while reading that.... ahem.... TWO FIFTY FIVE'S?? granted that is a later year but DAMN.... hats off to you for getting that under there holy cow lol

also 275's?!?! that's just... i got some thread/pic searching to do >:)

-kiyoshi

LOL... Ah right I wasn't paying attention to the "'64 Valiant" part lol. Early A-bodies are quite different I doubt 255s would fit but I think you could squeeze something bigger than 215s under there. And credit goes to 72bluNblu he figured it out first I just talked to him about how he did it and copied his setup hahaha.
 

72bluNblu

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I think with an early A you can probably get 245's on there with the right backspacing. Although compound is more important, I'd rather run nice 200 treadwear AA A tires in 225 than 360 A B's in 245. But I don't think you'll be getting 275's on a '64, could be wrong early A's are not my specialty.

Anyway, I run 1.12's on my '74 Duster on the street. I'm actually planning on upgrading to 1.14's here pretty soon. The wheel rates depend on who is calculating them, my Firm Feel 1.12's are advertised at 300 lb/in and the MP 1.14's are advertised at 350 lb/in. Of course, the MP 1.09's are advertised at 300 lb/in and SwayAway has slightly different values as well. I kinda doubt the spring constants of the steel are all that different, so it may be in their calculation which makes it a little tricky to compare bars from different manufacturers.

My Duster is no doubt heavier than your '64 and I run 275/35/18's up front and 295/40/18's out back, they're also Falken Azeni RT615's so they're 200 A A rated. I also run Hellwig sway bars front and rear with Hotchkis Fox shocks. I maintain about 1" between my LCA and bumpstop for travel, and even with the 300 lb/in bars I'm still using all of that travel, which is the big thing. If you go too stiff you won't keep your wheels on the ground through bumps, which results in losing traction. But I'm still using all my travel, so, on my car I know I can still go with a higher wheel rate.

If track work is in the future I don't think I'd go smaller than 1.08", even with the car being lighter than mine. I think you'd be in the right ballpark with 1.08-1.14" bars if the plan is to run a high performance but still streetable tire.

For tire size on the early A's, look for some posts by @vntned. You can probably just search "245's" from his username. I know he was running 245's on his early A but I forget the specifics.
 

TT5.9mag

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I honestly think a rear away bar is a necessity on these cars. They are very understeer-prone and it really takes a lot to make them oversteer. I know a lot of old-timers warn about spinning out with a rear away bar but I think that only applies if you're running stock skinny rear tires and haven't stiffened up the front suspension at all.

Most things I assumed about "good handling" from reading what most people on here have said were blown out of the water once I actually went to the track and pushed my car past its limits. Having low body roll in cornering does not equate to strong lateral grip and unfortunately that's what most guys assume. It all has to work together as a system. Leaving the rear suspension stock and soft but adding thick torsion bars and a front sway bar will make it feel flatter in the corners but the car will actually understeer worse when it's pushed than with stock soft front suspension.
I completely agree with you. Hence why I said “at the very least…”.
 

racerjoe

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I run a 1.08 sway a way bar, Hotchkis leafs and Hotchkis sway bars front and back. I have the rear bar on the tightest setting. I autocross, not track. The car handles amazing.

I have limited experience on the road course and my experience I do have is in a stock Miata and a race prepped Miata. Based on that limited experience, I wouldn't go any smaller than a 1.08 and would likely lean towards at least a 1.12.
 

kiyoshi

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I need to take the time a little later to reply to everyone BUT on a side side side (side?) note and so as to not revive a dead thread itself:

How to install front shock upper bushings? 68 Dart

in this thread.... are they... confusing strut ROD (the lower control arm in to k-member) bushings with strut/shock absorber upper mounting bushings (mount on the top of your shock absorber itself to the strut towers)? They keep referencing 1 vs 2 piece and puck design but wasn't that for the different length strut rods with either fine or course threads and different bushing length spacing on the strut RODS?

I went to adjust my shocks a few weeks ago and noticed when I took off the currently installed two piece and crummy looking bushing, that there was a large radius in the hole of the shock tower that had no bushing and could move around, maybe 1/4" in all directions. I don't like this one bit.... and everything about this car from the previous owner was either done incorrectly, poorly, or not at all.

From that, are either of the parts on classic industries the ACTUAL part that I (and other forum post user) am looking for?
MD2197 - 1951-76 Dodge/Plymouth; Shock Absorber Grommet; Various Models; Each
MN38100 - 1964-74 Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth; Upper Shock Absorber Bushings; Pair

Based off the diagram in the FSM and in the forum link, it looks like the second link posted above should be the proper bushings?

Every time I go to look anything up I keep getting met with strut ROD bushings and I know those are not the ones I'm looking for

-kiyoshi
 

autoxcuda

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Come out to the track the next time Tim Herren does an event for www.alltimeracing.com I think he might be doing something before Fall Fling.

We always does an event before Spring Fling

tubular Hellwig bars for front are a good value.

on the track (like Big Willow) you probably don’t want much or disconnect the rear bar. I had to do that. Around town and autocross you need to the car to turn and lower speeds. On a fast track with a heavy sedan, you don’t need that much rear roll couple. Especially if you are a novice driver or starting out with a new setup/car. Then experiment with rear bar. That’s why in your case I would go with an adjustable rear bar that you can disconnect or adjust.

imho you need to start roll the fenders for more tire.

BTW, do you own the powder blue 64 Valiant ive seen at SuperCar Sunday a couple times.
 

MopaR&D

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I need to take the time a little later to reply to everyone BUT on a side side side (side?) note and so as to not revive a dead thread itself:

How to install front shock upper bushings? 68 Dart

in this thread.... are they... confusing strut ROD (the lower control arm in to k-member) bushings with strut/shock absorber upper mounting bushings (mount on the top of your shock absorber itself to the strut towers)? They keep referencing 1 vs 2 piece and puck design but wasn't that for the different length strut rods with either fine or course threads and different bushing length spacing on the strut RODS?

I went to adjust my shocks a few weeks ago and noticed when I took off the currently installed two piece and crummy looking bushing, that there was a large radius in the hole of the shock tower that had no bushing and could move around, maybe 1/4" in all directions. I don't like this one bit.... and everything about this car from the previous owner was either done incorrectly, poorly, or not at all.

From that, are either of the parts on classic industries the ACTUAL part that I (and other forum post user) am looking for?
MD2197 - 1951-76 Dodge/Plymouth; Shock Absorber Grommet; Various Models; Each
MN38100 - 1964-74 Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth; Upper Shock Absorber Bushings; Pair

Based off the diagram in the FSM and in the forum link, it looks like the second link posted above should be the proper bushings?

Every time I go to look anything up I keep getting met with strut ROD bushings and I know those are not the ones I'm looking for

-kiyoshi

If I understand your question correctly, in the world of classic Mopars the word "strut" only refers to the strut rods from the LCAs to the subframe. These cars all have SLA-type suspension and don't use struts in the modern Macpherson Strut sense.

If you're still confused I'd recommend starting a new thread or replying to the one you linked.
 

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