Chrysler starter spin down time

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So nobody here knows what the little hole in the black motor housing is for? I noticed some of the starters for sale online have them and others don't. Just wondering if a screw is supposed to be in there or what the heck its purpose is. Wouldn't dirt get into the motor?
 
IMO I dont see any reason not to just use a "mini" starter found on late model Dakota's Bolt right in and turn the engine faster and they are tons smaller. no down side, unless you are doing a Numbers resto. link http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=327327&highlight=dakota+starter


Because that's not what originally came on the car and it doesn't have that classic mopar sound. I had a Denso mini starter on the car when I bought it and to be honest I didn't think it was anything special. it too took a while to spin down,would ocassionally not mesh correctly and started its "click,click,click,click" routine,and it sounded like a Toyota starting instead of a 1970 Dart.
Whats wrong with the old starters? I have a slant six,not a 440, I don't see any reason not to use one of them,they are much easier to find,cost less and have the sound that most people here have said they love.

I'm not knocking those who want to use the mini starter,to each his own and I know they are more powerful,but Chrysler used this starter from the early 60's into the late 80's,they aren't junk.
 
So nobody here knows what the little hole in the black motor housing is for? I noticed some of the starters for sale online have them and others don't. Just wondering if a screw is supposed to be in there or what the heck its purpose is. Wouldn't dirt get into the motor?

This is only a guess but maybe the hole is where a tag was attached with a rivet.

I understand how you feel, I had a mini-starter on a Mopar, despite the advantages I missed that special sound.
 
This is only a guess but maybe the hole is where a tag was attached with a rivet.

I understand how you feel, I had a mini-starter on a Mopar, despite the advantages I missed that special sound.

Thanks Goldfish,it nice to know im not alone in liking them,it seems a lot of folks here have great fondness for the special sound of these starters.

I hadn't thought about that,I guess a tag could have gone there. I know the old auto-lite starters had a metal tag on the housing. Ive seen some others on ebay with that hole too.
 
I used to pride myself on being able to tell what brand car was started in a parking lot by hearing the starter noise, Chrysler and Ford being the most distinct. The first Chrysler starter I got that didn't have that distict overrun noise was my first Cherokee. Even when they were new the starter still ran after the engine was settled to an idle. It was a charming, warming Mopar character, and never meant there was something wrong, just normal. I do have fond memories but now I use the later model Dakota starter and although it is far superior, it doesn't have any distinct sound, just the engine compression turning. By the way, for those that don't know, those high output mini gear reduction starters yours buying for $200, it's the same late model Dakota starter at the auto parts store for $80, just without the lifetime warranty. Hope that saves some of you money.
 
Hi,I replaced the starter on my 70 Dart yesterday with a rebuilt factory Chrysler gear reduction unit. it had a Denso one on it previously that finally went out so I wanted an original Mopar unit to get that old Mopar sound back. The starter works fine,but I've noticed the spin down time seems like 4-5 seconds after you let off the key. Why do these spin so long?

When properly built, they don't—that's only when they're worn out or when thrown together by a "remanufacturer". Way-too-aggressive blast-media cleaning of castings, failure to use the correct leather brake washer (and install it dry and make sure it stays dry), misapplication of way-too-big so-called "high torque" field coils, and all the rest of the don't-give-a-futz procedures that go into "remanufacturing" starters all add up to a starter that sounds like hell and takes forever to spin down (and has a short, unhappy life).

Don't believe me? Listen and hear for yourself; Here and here are recordings of a properly-built large-frame (1.8hp) Chrysler gear-reduction starter cranking and starting my '62. And here's a properly-built small-frame, 3-series/1-shunt (1.3hp) Chrysler gear-reduction starter cranking and starting a 440 in a '66.

Want back that classic Chrysler "Highland Park Hummingbird" cranking sound, without the hair-raising gear thrash and long spindown? Have an original starter built up correctly, or buy a new old stock unit (they are not difficult or costly to get hold of; I have more of them on my shelf than I'll ever use.)
 
So nobody here knows what the little hole in the black motor housing is for?

It's for the bolt that attaches a stamped-aluminum heat shield that was used on some applications, mostly V8s that had the underhood "mini-ox" catalytic converters) starting around '84.
 
One day, back in the early 80s, I had nothing to do,so I went out to the shed and grabbed a bunch of those old starters. I tore 'em all apart and put the good parts on one pile, the bad parts on a second pile,and the rest on another pile. Then I reconditioned, from the good pile, using mostly used parts.What I ended up with was about 5 or 6 good starters, and a pail and a half of spare parts. I might still have 1 or 2 left somewhere, but I stopped using them when I heard my first mini.
Sorry, but I never cared for that old Mopar starter sound.Plus they are so heavy..
I like the click-vroom
 
When properly built, they don't—that's only when they're worn out or when thrown together by a "remanufacturer". Way-too-aggressive blast-media cleaning of castings, failure to use the correct leather brake washer (and install it dry and make sure it stays dry), misapplication of way-too-big so-called "high torque" field coils, and all the rest of the don't-give-a-futz procedures that go into "remanufacturing" starters all add up to a starter that sounds like hell and takes forever to spin down (and has a short, unhappy life).

Don't believe me? Listen and hear for yourself; Here and here are recordings of a properly-built large-frame (1.8hp) Chrysler gear-reduction starter cranking and starting my '62. And here's a properly-built small-frame, 3-series/1-shunt (1.3hp) Chrysler gear-reduction starter cranking and starting a 440 in a '66.

Want back that classic Chrysler "Highland Park Hummingbird" cranking sound, without the hair-raising gear thrash and long spindown? Have an original starter built up correctly, or buy a new old stock unit (they are not difficult or costly to get hold of; I have more of them on my shelf than I'll ever use.)

Thanks SlantsixDan for the wealth of information on these starters! I am impressed,you were even able to tell me what the little hole is for on the starters. Do you rebuild these yourself? Would you by any chance be willing to part with one of the NOS starters on your self? Do you have one that would be year correct for my 1970 Swinger? I have the 225 slant. I checked on ebay but didn't see any NOS 1970 starters.

I like the "Highland Park Hummingbird" line. Its funny how many people here comment on how the sound makes them smile. Indeed,its truly a unique sound.

P.S. would you happen to know the size screw that goes in the little hole so I can find one,or do I need to worry about the hole letting dust into the starter? right now I have a piece of tape over it.
 
I have said many times: yes, the newer mini starters are objectively better in just about every way, but they take away that vintage-Mopar sound. I have a (passably) modern car for daily driving; when I'm out in an old Mopar, I want it to sound like an old Mopar.

Rebuild them myself? No, I haven't had the tools for many years. I don't recall what size that screw is, but a quick trip to the hardware store with the starter in hand should let you figure it out. Whatever its thread size, its length is short for obvious reasons. Doesn't matter, though; a correct-for-'70 starter will not have that hole. I think I do have such a starter; send me a PM.
 
I have said many times: yes, the newer mini starters are objectively better in just about every way, but they take away that vintage-Mopar sound. I have a (passably) modern car for daily driving; when I'm out in an old Mopar, I want it to sound like an old Mopar.

Rebuild them myself? No, I haven't had the tools for many years. I don't recall what size that screw is, but a quick trip to the hardware store with the starter in hand should let you figure it out. Whatever its thread size, its length is short for obvious reasons. Doesn't matter, though; a correct-for-'70 starter will not have that hole. I think I do have such a starter; send me a PM.

Thanks! I couldn't agree more. the whole charm of owning a old car is that it is a old car. one of the unique features of these Mopars is that "old Mopar sound". PM sent
 
That makes sense about them being poorly rebuilt, I'm sure most all of them I thought just normal were actually parts store rebuilds, I don't specifically remember any of them being short lived back then but I wasn't paying attention back then either. Remember, you could get a starter for what, around $30 at the parts store back then. Now the same exact starter, probably literally the same one rebuilt again is $80. Good times.
 
That makes sense about them being poorly rebuilt, I'm sure most all of them I thought just normal were actually parts store rebuilds, I don't specifically remember any of them being short lived back then but I wasn't paying attention back then either. Remember, you could get a starter for what, around $30 at the parts store back then. Now the same exact starter, probably literally the same one rebuilt again is $80. Good times.

Its just like many things today,the work is done outside the USA by underpaid,unskilled labor o cut costs,and even some of the local shops who should know better are incompetent. it took two tries for the rebuilder to correctly rebuild an old MOpar autolite generator for me so it would actually function,it never occurred to them to test it before it went out the first time.

I paid $44 for the starter for a local parts store with a lifetime warranty. I called all around first and all the rebuilds are either from Mexico or China. The one I have now bears a sticker that says it was rebuilt by autolite but doesn't say if the work was done in the USA,either way it still spins down for 5 seconds like the last one.

These are good starters,they made them for like 25 years! a friend had a 71 Duster and I don't ever recall the starter going out in the 15+ years he owned it.
 
Even at the slight bump of the key mine will spin down for 4-5 seconds. I went on youtube and found some videos of others starting their cars and indeed some do stop almost instantly when the key is let off.

check out these videos Reduction gear starter on a 1st gen hemi - YouTube

20-degree Slant Six cold start - YouTube

As far as getting a starter specifically for the six,I have always heard they are non-specific and can be interchanged among the lot,but there was never a specific starter for the slant six only. How can I identifity the "six banger" one?

heres a video showing the short and large frame starters,he claims they are all interchangeable,and the large frame didn't come out until 1975 for use on the bigger v8s to combat heat related hard start issues. until then he says that Chrysler used the same starter for the slants and V8's.
Identifying Chrysler gear-reduction starters - YouTube

in this video he tests them and they all seem to stop in seconds.
Chrysler starter comparison - YouTube


Cool that you could get use from a few of my videos:cheers:

I think you guys sometimes overthink some of these things though. Just about ALL the unrebuilt starters I've used have a long spindown time, especially if the key is held over too long. The starter in the above slant six cold start video is the original 49K mile unit.The starter on the Dart video below is the original unit for that car also, unrebuilt, and they both do it so I respectfully disagree that they only do it when worn out. On the contrary, i find that when they sound like they are dragging and DON'T spin down very long, the bushings are usually dry and/or getting worn out.

Dan may have touched on this, but even though the starters look the same, they are most certainly not.From '62-70 the same starter was used on most stuff (2095150) About '70 or so the part number changed when the housing changed to a bolt-on solenoid, then changed again in late '72 at which time the starter speed went up. It went up again later on. The large-frame starters REALLY spin fast.


The first video is a flooded 318 with a 2095150 starter. The second is a '73 Sport with original "higher-speed" small-frame starter.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDfQWPDnFJo"]Vintage Chrysler starter workout - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRbXzgHZJ1o"]Snowy Dart Sport cold start - YouTube[/ame]
 
I respectfully disagree that they only do it when worn out.

It's not that they only do it when they're worn out, it's that they do it if the starter motor speed is higher than the geartrain was designed for, or when the brake washer is improper (too thin, wrong material, wetted down with oil) or chewed up (happens very fast with sandblasted driven gear and pinion housing...rough surface + leather brake washer = brake washer ground up into leather dust).

when they sound like they are dragging and DON'T spin down very long, the bushings are usually dry and/or getting worn out.

You're conflating two different things. Listen to the two sound links I posted. Neither of those starters is dragging, and neither of them has a long spindown.

even though the starters look the same, they are most certainly not.From '62-70 the same starter was used on most stuff (2095150) About '70 or so the part number changed when the housing changed to a bolt-on solenoid, then changed again in late '72 at which time the starter speed went up.

1962-1969, except '63 all engines and '64-'69 170: starter 2095 150, 1.3 horsepower, 3 series/1 shunt, small coils.

1963 all engines, '64-'69 170: starter 2098 500, 1.4 horsepower, 4-series, small coils. Maximum crank speed about 20% higher under certain conditions.

1970-'72, all engines: starter 2875 560, electrically identical to 2095 150. Physically different with new-style gasketed brush plate and one intermediate bushing eliminated.

1973 all engines, early: starter 3656 650, identical to 2875 560 except part number.

1973 all engines, late: starter 3656 575 (yes, the later unit has the lower part number). 1.5 horsepower, 4-series, large coils This is where cranking speed goes way above the original design of this geartrain -- it's about double the original design. Starter noise increases quite a bit, and the starter takes longer to spin down from its higher speed.

1974 400 and 440 engines: starter 3755 250. This is the first large-frame version of the gear reduction starter. 1.8 horsepower, 4-series. Gear ratio is 2:1 instead of 3.75:1 as in the small-frame starter. MUCH higher cranking speed but not a whole lot of spindown time, because this is a geartrain operating within its design speed range.

1974 all other engines: starter 3755 900. Electrically identical to 3656 575, same high noise and longer spindown, but has redesigned helix angle on driven shaft and new shock-cushioned starter drive unit.

From 1975-1979ish, Chrysler plays follow-the-queen with applications for 3755 250 (large frame) and 3755 900 (small frame), seemingly at random. During this timeframe, the small starter gets new part number 4091 975 and the large starter gets 4091 950, with no actual changes. Most years the biggest engines get the big starter, some years the smaller engines get the big starter, other years the smaller engines get the small starter. Chrysler was a mess at that time; it's probably down to whatever they had in the cupboard.

Both starters get new numbers around 1984: 4111 855 (small) and 4111 860 (large). Identical to 3755 900 (small) and 3755 250 (large).

Last part numbers issued for these starters are in 1987: 4145 359 (small) and 4145 360 (large). This is also the last year these starters are used in new-vehicle production; in 1988 Chrysler starts buying starters from Nippondenso.
 
quit wasting your money and just put a mini-starter on it and be done with all this nonsense.....as I stated in post #3 Its a Chrysler trademark...Don't you know??...If you can't live with it put a mini starter on it.......I put a mini starter on my numbers matching 73 340 dart sport and never looked back....
 
quit wasting your money and just put a mini-starter on it

Yeah! Quit wasting your money and get a '16 Dart instead of that old one!

Pfft.

In this country, every individual has the right to freedom of starter motor selection. I'm pretty sure it's in the Constitution somewhere. The man wants what he wants, and it's entirely doable. If he wants the kind of starter the car came with, but wants it to work correctly, that's legit; it's his car.

(Oh, and by the way: once you start removing correctly-numbered components from your car, it ain't all that "numbers matching" any more.)
 
Yeah! Quit wasting your money and get a '16 Dart instead of that old one!

Pfft.

In this country, every individual has the right to freedom of starter motor selection. I'm pretty sure it's in the Constitution somewhere. The man wants what he wants, and it's entirely doable. If he wants the kind of starter the car came with, but wants it to work correctly, that's legit; it's his car.

(Oh, and by the way: once you start removing correctly-numbered components from your car, it ain't all that "numbers matching" any more.)


Numbers matching refers to the the engine block stamped VIN and trans which all match.......Not some stupid starter that has the classic wind down and always has....Every mopar starter I heard has it.....Live with it or get a mini and quit whining....Not a big deal....This is one thing MA mopar didn't get right...their starters
 
Yep, this here's my trusty ol' axe. Got it from my dad, who got it from his dad, who got it from his dad. 'Course, it's had six new heads and nine new handles, but it's the same ol' axe!
 
Well, OK, if you insist. But we're still gonna fight like cats and dogs over starter selection, because the stakes are so low! :)
 
quit wasting your money and just put a mini-starter on it and be done with all this nonsense.....as I stated in post #3 Its a Chrysler trademark...Don't you know??...If you can't live with it put a mini starter on it.......I put a mini starter on my numbers matching 73 340 dart sport and never looked back....


Sorry,haven't been online in a while and just saw there were more replies to this thread. I didn't intend to start a great debate here. Everyone can do what they like with their own car. I respect your decision to go the mini starter route,and as I stated earlier here I had one on the car when I bought it and when it went out i wanted the original Mopar starter sound back. I am not alone in this feeling as lots of folks here have shared their love of that classic sound. and yes,I can live with the spin down time. I was merely asking questions to learn if this was how they were from the factory.I think it's great that members like SlantSixDan and the rest share their knowledge so the rest of us know how they originally were.
I'm certainly not telling you to get rid of your mini-starter or coming down on you for not having your car original. Everyone can do what they like with their own car.
 
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