Cruise Seems Lean

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I’m going to disagree on the engine temperature. At least a bit. 200 is just too hot for this stuff. I don’t know your compression ratio or cam timing or even what plug you are using but that is way too hot for me.

This isn’t an emissions deal so for me, power is everything and that’s too hot. Engine heat will make them detonate. So that lean surge may have been from the engine temp getting up to the point where the fuel was vaporized so much from engine heat it didn’t pull enough heat out of the air stream as it heads for the chamber. That raises the inlet air temperature and you can get a lean surge or even detonation.

Of course, you can get the engine too cool and get into other issues, most of which can be cleaned up with annular boosters. Which if you like to tinker with this stuff changing boosters is relatively easy if you have the tool. It’s about 200 bucks for the boosters and banjos. I’m not saying you need that. But it’s an option if you can get the engine temp down.

Pictures of the plugs and some specs would help.

BTW, in the /6 forum, @RustyRatRod has a thread outlining his tune up with a higher than “normal” compression ratio and how engine temperature affected his tune up and such. Maybe he will see this and add his 20 cents. His thread is worth reading.

This engine is a 1978 440, so compression is in 7.5-8 likely. I have a Hughes Whiplash 440 cam. Timing is 20 deg initial timing and 38 deg full in I believe. The heads are stock 452. Fenderwell headers. The Weiand tunnel ram with twin 660s. Strange combo, but it works very well, especially with the 3.91 gears. This gear change (2.94) was for the road trip - so that and the air temp is what is new. I did order a new radiator to help with engine coolant temp.
 
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This engine is a 1978 440, so compression is in 7.5-8 likely. I have a Hughes Whiplash 440 cam. Timing is 20 deg initial timing and 38 deg full in I believe. The heads are stock 452. Fenderwell headers. The Weiand tunnel ram with twin 660s. Strange combo, but it works very well, especially with the 3.91 gears. This gear change was for the road trip so that and the air temp is what is new. I did order a new radiator to help with engine coolant temp.
Here we go again
I will ask before anyone else does.
What radiator did you purchase?
Sorry we may are gett'n off track, but it could have a being on your issue per YR.
 
What I was talking about was temperatures that indicate situations the engine may be in trouble, or will develop trouble. Cooler intake temps is generally better for power. Just dont want to see him chasing something as a problem which may not be. Chasing power, thats another story.
I'd be more interested if the oil temperature is getting too high for brisk interstate driving speeds. At some point the oil temps start to climb even when the coolant temps don't. That's mostly an endurance track situation but have had it happen both with a 60 over 340 and a worn straight 6 on extended interstate drives.

It’s been a while since I was at Sonoma or Laguna watching the classics. I will be later this summer and I’m going to really check out the road race AAR and T/A’s while in the paddock. These were 340’s that were de-stroked to 302’s. Not sure if the cars ran a high volume water pump or larger radiator. Not seen a B.B. road race motor, but a race boat yeah and similar timing setup.

I don't know anyone involved in that series. Maybe Tuner has some insight there.
Ott and Hagstrom were running in the Cascade regional series as a GT entry. After Dick died, AFAIK Gary only ran it in historic groups. I can dig through old emails if anyone is curious to which groups.
Herron has a run a variety of competition series but as far as I know just with the historic groups (and Lemons which is lower average mph but certainly an endurance situation.
Ritz was running vintage SCCA (regional) and CSRG. Not sure he's done any competition events recently althoug I know the car has been repaired since the fire.

Some nice pics here. You'll recognize the track. :)
The Gallery
 
Here we go again
I will ask before anyone else does.
What radiator did you purchase?
Sorry we may are gett'n off track, but it could have a being on your issue per YR.

Here we go again? My current radiator was used from a friends shed. 3443 951 and I was told 26" 1971 C body 383 AC auto. It didn't leak and until this last weekend, worked very well. Just YESTERDAY I ordered a Cold Case for same application. Dad just put a 22" version in his 383 1969 Barracuda and ran 170-180 on the same trip.
 
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What I was talking about was temperatures that indicate situations the engine may be in trouble, or will develop trouble. Cooler intake temps is generally better for power. Just dont want to see him chasing something as a problem which may not be. Chasing power, thats another story.
I'd be more interested if the oil temperature is getting too high for brisk interstate driving speeds. At some point the oil temps start to climb even when the coolant temps don't. That's mostly an endurance track situation but have had it happen both with a 60 over 340 and a worn straight 6 on extended interstate drives.



I don't know anyone involved in that series. Maybe Tuner has some insight there.
Ott and Hagstrom were running in the Cascade regional series as a GT entry. After Dick died, AFAIK Gary only ran it in historic groups. I can dig through old emails if anyone is curious to which groups.
Herron has a run a variety of competition series but as far as I know just with the historic groups (and Lemons which is lower average mph but certainly an endurance situation.
Ritz was running vintage SCCA (regional) and CSRG. Not sure he's done any competition events recently althoug I know the car has been repaired since the fire.

Some nice pics here. You'll recognize the track. :)
The Gallery


I am trying to determine if it was outside temp, engine temp, combination of temps, lean mix, etc. If his car ran so much cooler than mine, like Yellow Rose commented on, maybe it is a big factor in the equation. It was a gear change, cruise rpm change, highest ambient temp ever driven, and furthest I have ever driven it.

I pulled the plugs. They don't look good but not as lean as originally looked. There is oil burn present also.[/QUOTE]
 
Spark Plug pics...

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Ouch!
There is so much oil burned onto them I really cant tell what the hell is going on. At this point I would have more concern where all the oil is coming from?
How many miles on those plugs?

There aren't many miles but about 3 years on them. They are the original plugs I put in when I was getting it running. I believe valve seals are the issue. The engine has about 40K miles on it.
 
Also, I have been running Valvoline VR-1 20w50 synthetic oil. Maybe I should switch to a high zinc conventional oil? Recommendations?
 
I have an extra set of 452 heads. I may take them to a shop to get valve job, guides, etc and change this winter if I can make it until then. Or depending on cost, sooner.
 
Although, I have a fresh set of 250 castings that are ported and ready to go. We're for another project but could be used
 
as to temperature;
I run my lil 367 at 205 to 207,by IR gun, all the time, and on purpose. The hi-flo stat is rated at 195, and the clutch-fan keeps her right at 205/207.. And she went 93 in the Eighth at that, with a lil 230*cam. It don't matter what the ambient is or how hard the engine is working, in-traffic or not,... 205 to 207.
But, I run fresh cold air into the 750DP, and she sits on an AirGap.

As to what circuit is working;
I currently have my 11/1 367 set up to run at 65= 2240 rpm in overdrive. She pumps pressure at about 180 +/- a couple.. The Barracuda is naturally a bit aerodynamic, and at 65 the carb is barely open....... partly because I am also throwing crazy timing at her, commensurate with what she wants. Some days the alloy heads want over 60* timing. Or perhaps I should say, she tolerates over 60*. I set that with my dash-mounted, dial-back, timing-retard box, advancing in 3* steps,, and then closing the throttle back to 65mph, and so on, until each step no longer increases the MPH. Then I stop the car, and change the slow-speed fueling to see what happens. Eventually it got too lean and I had add some back in.
If I told you that my car, on a certain day-trip, averaged 32mpgs, would you believe me? Well that was not with the same 65=2240 gears lol. That was with gearing of 65~1600 and a 223@.050 cam,lol.
Because you have twin 660s, I'll bet your primaries are barely open.
To see where mine were, I fabricated a simple carb stop; see below if interested.

BTW
lean is way easier to determine than rich, so start rich and work backwards. If you lean it out and nothing much happens, lean it out some more, until something does, lol.
Read the signs; If a cold engine starts and runs without choke, she is rich. If the engine runs worse as it warms up, she is probably rich. A multi-strike can hide this.
For best results, the cruise timing will have to get into the deep 50s at typical rpms in the 2200 to 2700rpm range. My rule of thumb for ballparking is to double the rpm and divide by 100, so cruising at 2200 will need 44*. Cruising at 2700 will require 54*... to start.
The purpose of timing at this time is to start the fire early enough to put peak cylinder pressure in the neighborhood of 25 to 28 degrees AFTER TDC. This is where it will apply the maximum amount of push, available in the expanding gasses, to the rotation of the crank.
Keep in mind that of all the energy contained in gasoline, only about 1/3 gets into turning the crank, with 1/3 going into the coolant and the other into the exhaust. You can't do much about the exhaust. But you can about the cooling system. If you run your engine too cold, the energy will want to go into the cooling system, instead of, into the crank. In my experience, 205* is working very well for me.
Get you coolant temp settled before getting too deep into the carb, else you may have to tune it twice,lol.
Don't forget the role elevation plays in air-density
Happy HotRodding

My throttle-stop;
I made mine from a J-shaped length of coat hanger, with one leg about a foot long and the other about 4inches; took about one minute. It took longer to find a new softer return spring, and the tiny wire-clamp (stopper) that makes it all work.
The way I made it work, is like this;
I drilled a hole in my front-mounted return-spring anchor,big enough to receive the wire, and twisted the thing to 90* from the return spring. Then I slid my wire clamp on the long leg, draped the J over the K-down pivot, while sliding the long leg thru the just-drilled hole. I installed a softer return-spring on the carb. Ok now, I put a lil distance between the loop and the KD pivot, about 5/16 inch, and tightened the cable clamp against the spring-anchor that was bolted to the intake up by the stat-house, to be a nice repeatable stop. Finally I reinstalled the stiff return spring but now onto the J-wire. To do that, I had to bend a lil hook on the short leg. Ok now I was all set, with an easy pull to the stopper, on the J-wire; then back to including the stiffer stock spring with about 5/16" travel of the throttle from idle to when it hit the loop in the J-wire; perfect.
I adjusted it to stop the throttle at a tiny opening... but it is a floating deal; so I can override it anytime, and it does not interfere with the closing action. So then I can boot it up to say 65mph and then reduce throttle, then increase throttle to where I can feel the stopper. Then Badaboom, hold it there long enough to establish an mph. If it's not right, then I gotta stop the car and readjust the stopper. It doesn't have to be exact, just close enough; BUT it does have to be repeatable.
Afterwards, I used it for a cruise-control. And it's kindof cool cuz when I hit the hiway, I can just slam the pedal to the stopper, and sooner or later, she will plateau on cruise-control.
I have a manual trans so she is very responsive to tiny inputs. IDK how well it would work with a hi-stall, but it also worked well on my 904 equipped DD, I just had to wait a lil longer for the Rs to settle.
If you want to, you will figure something out.
 
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Ok, you have to lose those plugs. That giant assed ground wire hanging out there getting red hot isn’t helping anything.

In fact, that plug is not only the wrong brand, it’s the wrong design. IIRC a 452 head takes a J series Champion which is a 5/8 reach, 13/16 hex gasket plug, not a tapered seat like that.

It could be later BB heads went to that tapered seat plug but I don’t remember that.

I’m not saying anything else until you get the right plug in it and go beat on it a bit.

But I will say this. If I had to just look at those plugs I’d say they are too damn hot, you are far from lean anywhere and you have an oil control issue.

It’s hard to fix a tune up when the plugs are that wrong.
 
as to temperature
I run my lil 367 at 205 to 207,by IR gun, all the time, and on purpose. The hi-flo stat is rated at 195, and the clutch-fan keeps her right at 205/207.. And she went 93 in the Eighth at that, with a lil 230*cam. It don't matter what the ambient is or how hard the engine is working, in-traffic or not,... 205 to 207.
But, I run fresh cold air into the 750DP.


And your pissing away 20 HP. Maybe more. No reason to ever run coolant temp that high.
 
I am trying to determine if it was outside temp, engine temp, combination of temps, lean mix, etc. If his car ran so much cooler than mine, like Yellow Rose commented on, maybe it is a big factor in the equation. It was a gear change, cruise rpm change, highest ambient temp ever driven, and furthest I have ever driven it.

I pulled the plugs. They don't look good but not as lean as originally looked. There is oil burn present also

What is the "it"? The hesitation and/or the surge? I think we know that is most likely due to the increased load on the engine.
If the gears hadn't been changed coolant may have run a little hotter strictly due to the length of time running on a hot day, but none of the drivability issues would have shown up. Did the gear change also increase the heat load? Possibly, if the engine is working harder.

However, now seeing those plugs, that could cause some drivabilty issues right there. I don't know if its just oil, or oil plus kernel growth and flame front being disrupted. Look at number 6 and the one location on the end of the shell thats pretty clean is where there electrodes don't shadow.

Over in the thread discussing gasoline I posted some distilation curves. Today's pump gas is a little more difficult to prepare properly in the chamber for good steady flame growth from the kernal. I would take a look at the factory spark plug for that head. Then if you don't want to use Champion, find a cross reference to whatever you prefer. If you do use the Champions - just check each one visually - that's what I've been doing. Consider them expendable. Use a set for long interstate run, and then see what they look like.
 
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Also, I have been running Valvoline VR-1 20w50 synthetic oil. Maybe I should switch to a high zinc conventional oil? Recommendations?
I have never run a synthetic oil in any of my old school engines, I do use VR-1 but 10w-30 conventional.
The oil weight is determined by the bearing clearances when the engine was built, opinions vary on this topic but typically you do not run 50 weight oil unless you have some pretty loose tolerance's.
It would be interesting to see if the port side of the valves are caked with oil.
If they are not the oil is most likely coming from the rings. It's gett'n in every cylinder.
Have you done a compression test or leak down test lately?
Do you know what valve seals you have now?
 
What is the "it"? The hesitation and/or the surge? I think we know that is most likely due to the increased load on the engine.
If the gears hadn't been changed coolant may have run a little hotter strictly due to the length of time running on a hot day, but none of the drivability issues would have shown up. Did the gear change also increase the heat load? Possibly, if the engine is working harder.

However, now seeing those plugs, that could cause some drivabilty issues right there. I don't know if its just oil, or oil plus kernel growth and flame front being disrupted. Look at number 6 and the one location on the end of the shell thats pretty clean is where there electrodes don't shadow.

Over in the thread discussing leaded fuels I posted some distilation curves. Today's pump gas is a little more difficult to prepare properly in the chamber for good steady flame growth from the kernal. I would take a look at the factory spark plug for that head. Then if you don't want to use Champion, find a cross reference to whatever you prefer. If you do use the Champions - just check each one visually - that's what I've been doing. Consider them expendable. Use a set for long interstate run, and then see what they look like.
I will probably get in trouble for saying this.
I have never had good service life out of Champion plugs and I have found them to be inconsistent.
I have been using Autolite and NGK now for years and have had very good performance.
 
I will probably get in trouble for saying this.
I have never had good service life out of Champion plugs and I have found them to be inconsistent.
I have been using Autolite and NGK now for years and have had very good performance.
LOL. Not going to get an arguement from me. Your experience is your experience. I sure dont think the quality is great even though I often use them. That's why I suggested checking each one for anything that looks wrong or badly assembled.
 
And your pissing away 20 HP.
Like I said;
she went 93 in the Eighth like that; and
she spins 325/50-15 DRs to, the track official said, over 90mph, which was verified by the tach sitting on 7000 the entire distance.
Furthermore;
it's hard to argue with the kind of mileage that 223* cam got.
Listen YR, I know you are smarter than me and I have no issue with that. A lotta guys here are smarter than me. I don't mind being the DA in the toolbox.
That's why I don't say to do what I did, I simply say what worked for me.
BTW
ask me if I care about the 20 missing horsepower, at 5200 rpm. On second thought, don't get me started lol.
 
I have never had good service life out of Champion plugs
The Champion plugs in my 367 are circa 1999 I think. RN12YC or something. Whatever they are, they have over 100,000 miles on them. Last time I looked at them was in about 2004/5 the summer I took a little trip to the dragstrip. Being as how they were already 5ish years old, I bought a new set. But when I pulled the aged ones out on preparation-day, they looked so new, I put them back in. The New ones, now more than 15 years old, are in the tune-up kit, still in the trunk.......
 
I think your due for a new set of plugs, you too AJ . 100,000 miles is a little much like 10 times much. lol
 
The Champion plugs in my 367 are circa 1999 I think. RN12YC or something. Whatever they are, they have over 100,000 miles on them. Last time I looked at them was in about 2004/5 the summer I took a little trip to the dragstrip. Being as how they were already 5ish years old, I bought a new set. But when I pulled the aged ones out on preparation-day, they looked so new, I put them back in. The New ones, now more than 15 years old, are in the tune-up kit, still in the trunk.......
Well there you go, there is always an exception to the rule.
There was alot of good stuff made back in 1999 that I wouldn't buy now.
 
What is the "it"? The hesitation and/or the surge? I think we know that is most likely due to the increased load on the engine.
If the gears hadn't been changed coolant may have run a little hotter strictly due to the length of time running on a hot day, but none of the drivability issues would have shown up. Did the gear change also increase the heat load? Possibly, if the engine is working harder.

However, now seeing those plugs, that could cause some drivabilty issues right there. I don't know if its just oil, or oil plus kernel growth and flame front being disrupted. Look at number 6 and the one location on the end of the shell thats pretty clean is where there electrodes don't shadow.

Over in the thread discussing gasoline I posted some distilation curves. Today's pump gas is a little more difficult to prepare properly in the chamber for good steady flame growth from the kernal. I would take a look at the factory spark plug for that head. Then if you don't want to use Champion, find a cross reference to whatever you prefer. If you do use the Champions - just check each one visually - that's what I've been doing. Consider them expendable. Use a set for long interstate run, and then see what they look like.

Matt,
"It" was meaning what I originally thought I saw as lean and the bit of surge. The hesitation, I am not concerned with at this moment.
 
I have never run a synthetic oil in any of my old school engines, I do use VR-1 but 10w-30 conventional.
The oil weight is determined by the bearing clearances when the engine was built, opinions vary on this topic but typically you do not run 50 weight oil unless you have some pretty loose tolerance's.
It would be interesting to see if the port side of the valves are caked with oil.
If they are not the oil is most likely coming from the rings. It's gett'n in every cylinder.
Have you done a compression test or leak down test lately?
Do you know what valve seals you have now?

I have not done a compression check or leak down. I just got home from the trip yesterday. The valve seals I assume are the ones the factory installed in the 70's. The engine sat for some time before I got it but all looked to be in pretty good shape. The plugs have never been looked at since day one of me having it. I should have but it has been running so very well, I didn't bother. I am still working the bugs out of the entire car.
 
Matt,
"It" was meaning what I originally thought I saw as lean and the bit of surge. The hesitation, I am not concerned with at this moment.
Surge in my experience is lean for the situation, or too much timing at light load can seem like that too. Some describe it as trailer hitching.
 
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