PapstXX
Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see your next step brother
"El Mongrel" '65 Formula S Restomod
- Thread starter rapom65
- Start date
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rapom65
Well-Known Member
Ok, about time I updated this thread as I've let it lapse too long.
Part 13
Let's continue with the suspension upgrades. Today's installment will be "Sub Frame Connectors ". You all know by now that I'm anal, to the point of detracting from the performance of the car, about not doing any permanent modifications that can not be easily removed and returned to original. This includes drilling holes, cutting sheet metal and welding. We also all know that A bodies need sub frame connectors if they're going to be driven "vigorously". The whole point of building this car was for "spirited" driving on twisty mountain roads which we have an abundance of here in the Pacific NW. So obviously we needed connectors that stiffened the chassis but not the permanently welded in kind. After digging through my metal supply I found the box tubing I thought was there had mysteriously disappeared. Hmmm... thieves in the night?.. or...needy friends. Same result, no sub frame materials. I did have some leftover 1 5/8" roll cage tubing leaning in the corner of the shop and as I eyeballed it I thought "why not, it's going to be bolt in anyway". After setting up the chop saw and taking some measurements, four 48" lengths of pipe lay on the floor. I clamped these together into two pairs and stitch welded the pipes using alternating 4" welds on each side. Some 2x3 box tubing cut offs were cut to form U channel that fit over the front "frame horns" of the rear suspension structure. Then it was time for the drill...hell they can be plug welded! Two holes on each rear bracket were punched through the "frame horns" for long grade 8 bolts. The front bracket was more involved. To drill through the transmission mount/torsion bar cross member would have been an option but there was already a nice large factory hole in the frame just in front of the cross member and I set about to utilize that instead of drilling more. I used some short pieces of heavy box tubing to make a "T" shaped cap that fit over where the front frame legs connect to the torsion bar cross member. I placed the rear boxes in place, fit the tubes between the two and tacked them together with several heavy tack welds. Then I removed them and completed the finish welding. A 3/4" shank grade 8 bolt about 6" long bolts the front sections in place. Sorry the pics don't show it well, hard to get decent angles on the connectors without a lift.
Pic 1 front box structure
Pic 2 & 3 tube connectors looking aft
Pic 4 rear box structure
The tubes clear the parking brake cables and floor pan, don't hang low, bolt in real easy and are very stiff. Not everyone's way of doing it but it met my needs/priorities. On bolt in connectors make sure you use the largest fender washers you can find, even double them up, to spread the load of the bolts out. The factory sheet metal is easy to collapse if you tighten down on the bolts to much.
Part 13
Let's continue with the suspension upgrades. Today's installment will be "Sub Frame Connectors ". You all know by now that I'm anal, to the point of detracting from the performance of the car, about not doing any permanent modifications that can not be easily removed and returned to original. This includes drilling holes, cutting sheet metal and welding. We also all know that A bodies need sub frame connectors if they're going to be driven "vigorously". The whole point of building this car was for "spirited" driving on twisty mountain roads which we have an abundance of here in the Pacific NW. So obviously we needed connectors that stiffened the chassis but not the permanently welded in kind. After digging through my metal supply I found the box tubing I thought was there had mysteriously disappeared. Hmmm... thieves in the night?.. or...needy friends. Same result, no sub frame materials. I did have some leftover 1 5/8" roll cage tubing leaning in the corner of the shop and as I eyeballed it I thought "why not, it's going to be bolt in anyway". After setting up the chop saw and taking some measurements, four 48" lengths of pipe lay on the floor. I clamped these together into two pairs and stitch welded the pipes using alternating 4" welds on each side. Some 2x3 box tubing cut offs were cut to form U channel that fit over the front "frame horns" of the rear suspension structure. Then it was time for the drill...hell they can be plug welded! Two holes on each rear bracket were punched through the "frame horns" for long grade 8 bolts. The front bracket was more involved. To drill through the transmission mount/torsion bar cross member would have been an option but there was already a nice large factory hole in the frame just in front of the cross member and I set about to utilize that instead of drilling more. I used some short pieces of heavy box tubing to make a "T" shaped cap that fit over where the front frame legs connect to the torsion bar cross member. I placed the rear boxes in place, fit the tubes between the two and tacked them together with several heavy tack welds. Then I removed them and completed the finish welding. A 3/4" shank grade 8 bolt about 6" long bolts the front sections in place. Sorry the pics don't show it well, hard to get decent angles on the connectors without a lift.
Pic 1 front box structure
Pic 2 & 3 tube connectors looking aft
Pic 4 rear box structure
The tubes clear the parking brake cables and floor pan, don't hang low, bolt in real easy and are very stiff. Not everyone's way of doing it but it met my needs/priorities. On bolt in connectors make sure you use the largest fender washers you can find, even double them up, to spread the load of the bolts out. The factory sheet metal is easy to collapse if you tighten down on the bolts to much.
Badart
Senior Member
Wow! I just found your thread and love your build. I have some similar ideas with the 65 Barracuda that I just picked up. It's a hipo 273 console shift car just like yours, but not a formula S. I will be starting on this car as soon as my dart is painted. I hope you don't mind if I borrow a few of your ideas. Subscribed.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Use any you like with my blessings. The main idea in doing this thread is to show guys they don't have to buy everything from the aftermarket. Think outside the box and build it yourself.
Badart
Senior Member
Any updates?:happy1:
PapstXX
Well-Known Member
I think to
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Part 14
Let's finish up the suspension. As previously discussed the stock Formula S suspension was a nice package from the factory and with some updating, thanks to modern shock and tire technology, it can be made even better. The remaining mods consist mostly of replacing all the old worn out rubber bushings with new polygraphite bushings: rear spring eyes and shackles, lower control arms, shorter bump stops, strut rods, Moog 7103 offset upper control arm bushings (for more camber adjustment, only available in rubber), new sway bar mounts and end links/hardware. Edelbrock IAS shocks at all four corners (poly bushed) and new, wider, lower profile radial tires round out the package. Everything in the steering system with a bearing was replaced with new Moog parts: idler arm, upper & lower ball joints, inner & outer tie rods and sleeves (should have gone with the heavier duty C body parts here for a slightly costlier upgrade). A newer aluminium manual steering box replaced the worn out power setup and the K member was completely re-welded with gussets added to the steering box mount. I have a set of .890 torsion bars (.870 stock) and a rear sway bar setup to play with at a later date. The torsion bar adjusters were cranked down to lower the front ride height about an inch to match the inch or so drop in the rear from flipping the spring hangers. Gusset plates were welded on the bottom of the lower control arms to kept them from flexing and twisting under hard cornering loads. I built new front sway bar mounts to accept modern greaseable poly bushings as the original rubber mounts were gone and not rebuildable. Can't give first hand knowledge yet on the results of all this work as I still haven't found a good alignment tech locally who knows his old Mopars to get this all sorted out and adjusted correctly.
Part 15
Getting her to stop. I'm throwing in the brake upgrades now as they share the same photos as above. Standard fair '73-'76 A body disk brake swap. I specified '76 loaded calipers and used the old ones as cores. The '76 calipers have a slightly larger piston diameter than the '73-'75 calipers and will give a proportional increase in clamping force and improved stopping performance. I kept the standard 10 7/8" rotors as they are much lighter than the bigger B body rotors and on such a light car are more than enough unless your road racing or autocrossing. The rear brakes are 10 x 2.5 " and for the life of me I can't remember what the donor vehicle was. May have been the stock 4 door Valiant 8 1/4 axle or a junk yard B/C or truck. Of course all new rear shoes and hardware, brake cylinders, lines, hoses, ect. front to rear were installed. A disk/drum manual brake master cylinder and distribution bock, again specified for a '76 A body, topped off the system.
Let's finish up the suspension. As previously discussed the stock Formula S suspension was a nice package from the factory and with some updating, thanks to modern shock and tire technology, it can be made even better. The remaining mods consist mostly of replacing all the old worn out rubber bushings with new polygraphite bushings: rear spring eyes and shackles, lower control arms, shorter bump stops, strut rods, Moog 7103 offset upper control arm bushings (for more camber adjustment, only available in rubber), new sway bar mounts and end links/hardware. Edelbrock IAS shocks at all four corners (poly bushed) and new, wider, lower profile radial tires round out the package. Everything in the steering system with a bearing was replaced with new Moog parts: idler arm, upper & lower ball joints, inner & outer tie rods and sleeves (should have gone with the heavier duty C body parts here for a slightly costlier upgrade). A newer aluminium manual steering box replaced the worn out power setup and the K member was completely re-welded with gussets added to the steering box mount. I have a set of .890 torsion bars (.870 stock) and a rear sway bar setup to play with at a later date. The torsion bar adjusters were cranked down to lower the front ride height about an inch to match the inch or so drop in the rear from flipping the spring hangers. Gusset plates were welded on the bottom of the lower control arms to kept them from flexing and twisting under hard cornering loads. I built new front sway bar mounts to accept modern greaseable poly bushings as the original rubber mounts were gone and not rebuildable. Can't give first hand knowledge yet on the results of all this work as I still haven't found a good alignment tech locally who knows his old Mopars to get this all sorted out and adjusted correctly.
Part 15
Getting her to stop. I'm throwing in the brake upgrades now as they share the same photos as above. Standard fair '73-'76 A body disk brake swap. I specified '76 loaded calipers and used the old ones as cores. The '76 calipers have a slightly larger piston diameter than the '73-'75 calipers and will give a proportional increase in clamping force and improved stopping performance. I kept the standard 10 7/8" rotors as they are much lighter than the bigger B body rotors and on such a light car are more than enough unless your road racing or autocrossing. The rear brakes are 10 x 2.5 " and for the life of me I can't remember what the donor vehicle was. May have been the stock 4 door Valiant 8 1/4 axle or a junk yard B/C or truck. Of course all new rear shoes and hardware, brake cylinders, lines, hoses, ect. front to rear were installed. A disk/drum manual brake master cylinder and distribution bock, again specified for a '76 A body, topped off the system.
Badart
Senior Member
Thanks for the update and great attention to detail. Like I said in the pm, I am picking up a 73 swinger to part out with the 8 1/4 rear and disc setup just like yours. How much were the 76 calipers? Did you get them at Napa? Did you have to do anything special to fit the sway bar to the new lower arms? My car is not a formula S so it doesn't have the sway bar mounts, but plan on running one.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Wow John your really putting a strain on my old membrane! It's been a number of years since this was all done. The calipers were sourced through Autozone and I believe they're rebuilds by Cardone (sp). I had trouble getting the copper washers to seal when installing the hoses but luckly had extras and finally got them to stop weeping. Price on the calipers - ? It won't be the same now anyway. It wasn't too horrible or I wouldn't have done it as I'm a cheep bastard! I used my stock lower control arms which were already set up with the sway bar tabs, I just built new mounts for the new greaseable type bushings making sure the bar was located in the factory position. The upper control arms have to be swapped for the larger late model upper ball joint. The stock lower arms will bolt right up to the new lower ball joints. If your LCAs do not have sway bar tabs there are some manufacturers that provide them with your sway bar. You need to research that out. Remember the '72 and earlier sway bar is a different design than the '73 up bars so if looking for factory tabbed LCAs they need to be '72 or earlier. They all interchange.
What a great build! how did I miss this one ? keep up the good work.
Badart
Senior Member
Thanks for the info. That helps alot. I plan on collecting parts over the next couple of years, so once I start on it there won't be any snags. Well that's the plan anyway.
340duster340
Well-Known Member
Awesome work and this was a very informative read
What paint did you use for the frame?
What paint did you use for the frame?
72hemidart
Well-Known Member
Rapom65 I am late in joining this conversation I used to have a 65 and I loved that car and yours is a work of art keep up the good work.
PapstXX
Well-Known Member
i am cheep bastard tooooooo
how is the name at this coupler on pic ?
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rapom65
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for the compliments. Sorry this thread has languished the last several months. Life's little challenges have been keeping me occupied and away from FABO much more than I would like. Hope to get back to adding some updates here in the very near future.
I used a combination of several different coatings through out the chassis: Everything was stripped of the old undercoating and then wiped down thuroughly with wax and grease remover.
The core support was spray bombed with an ACE Hardware brand high heat satin black.
Front wheel wells were re-coated with, IIRC, NAPA brand undercoating.
Front suspension and K member painted with gloss black POR 15.
Rear axle, suspension, drive shaft and floor pans painted with chassis coat black POR 15.
Top of stock gas tank was also coated with the NAPA undercoat to prevent rust formation.
I used a combination of several different coatings through out the chassis: Everything was stripped of the old undercoating and then wiped down thuroughly with wax and grease remover.
The core support was spray bombed with an ACE Hardware brand high heat satin black.
Front wheel wells were re-coated with, IIRC, NAPA brand undercoating.
Front suspension and K member painted with gloss black POR 15.
Rear axle, suspension, drive shaft and floor pans painted with chassis coat black POR 15.
Top of stock gas tank was also coated with the NAPA undercoat to prevent rust formation.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much. Don't know about art, more like a finger painting by a kindergarten class...
rapom65
Well-Known Member
PapstXX, from post #41 of this thread:i am cheep bastard tooooooo
how is the name at this coupler on pic ?
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"I went to the Flaming River web site to link the shaft and coupling but it looks like they have dropped it from their product line. The part number was 1505M. Back in March '07 when I ordered mine the kit went for 109.95 thru Summit. Flaming River only shows two part numbers for Mopar couplings and they start at 1506M. That's a shame because it was such a simple and effective solution for the early A header/steering interference. Damn them!"
They still offer some couplers but have dropped the "D" shaft with the cup on the end that you weld the steering shaft into. It's the shaft that gives you the needed clearance to the header/manifold.
Have you repaired your transmission and been driving your car?
PapstXX
Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see your next step bro
winstoninwisc
Taint easy livin free,season ticket ona 1wayride
I have a parts car out back with a lot of trim , dash lotta good parts has to to go soon pm if you need parts
winstoninwisc
Taint easy livin free,season ticket ona 1wayride
luv the headers who made them /how much
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Have not been working on the car lately as I'm chest deep in another project. Haven't checked this thread in a while, so sorry haven't answered your questions.
Headers are Layson's, which are essentially "Spitfires". I built collector extensions on them to get them down past the torsion bars and then had them coated locally. Mods to them can be seen early in the thread.
Got a two hour drive to get to work this morning so I have to hit the road. I will try to keep an eye out better for any questions in the future. Have a good one guys.
Headers are Layson's, which are essentially "Spitfires". I built collector extensions on them to get them down past the torsion bars and then had them coated locally. Mods to them can be seen early in the thread.
Got a two hour drive to get to work this morning so I have to hit the road. I will try to keep an eye out better for any questions in the future. Have a good one guys.
Jhenry70
Well-Known Member
Subscribed back at ya! Love the "out of the box" thinking and the vision.... Build it the way you want it!
Jerry
Jerry
Nice project! My thoughts have run on a very similar path on my 65 S project - but ended up doing TTI headers ($$) and 2.25 duals. I am also trying to keep from molesting the body, and have been successful in doing so. I am even trying to stay true to the stock interior, but eventually will end up using a later 904 which will require a different shift mechanism - need some liquid inspiration to mitigate that little problem. (as you know, almost anything for the early 904's is available - except good performance stuff like shifters and torque converters and....) I did end up with a 67 318 block and have taken advantage of the thicker cylinder walls - did you know the original 340's were bored out 318s? ( ;-] ) - it doesn't really matter, 'cause there is Always something out there faster/meaner. Just doing it to keep ME happy! So long as it looks good, sounds good and gets down the road and around the corner(s) in good form, I will be smiling! I am having a much good time building this thing and will continue making "improvements" as long as I can. Disc brakes are probably next. Maybe even paint this summer!
I know this is many years after you did you project S car, perhaps this will remind you of some of the fun things that you experienced while building your car! (by the way - I have had designs on this car since my dad bought it new in 65!)
Later
Cheech14
Art(RT)
I know this is many years after you did you project S car, perhaps this will remind you of some of the fun things that you experienced while building your car! (by the way - I have had designs on this car since my dad bought it new in 65!)
Later
Cheech14
Art(RT)
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