Does gross lift in the description of Crower cam mean that its lift with or without lash? I'm sorry for stupid question but English is not my language ;-)
Flat tappet to solid roller...
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Does gross lift in the description of Crower cam mean that its lift with or without lash? I'm sorry for stupid question but English is not my language ;-)
Without the lash. Gross lift is the lobe lift times the rocker arm ratio.
Net lift is the gross lift minus the valve lash.
You will also lose lift via the pushrod, rocker arm and rocker shaft deflections. This becomes obvious when you check lift at the valve with light pressure checking springs and then test the lift with the actual springs you will be using.
Net lift is the gross lift minus the valve lash.
You will also lose lift via the pushrod, rocker arm and rocker shaft deflections. This becomes obvious when you check lift at the valve with light pressure checking springs and then test the lift with the actual springs you will be using.
Any other camshaft manufacturers I should check out?
I am leaning towards Comp cam with Lunati lifters, springs and retainers but Lunati seems to be good option too.
Comp:
Lunati:
I am leaning towards Comp cam with Lunati lifters, springs and retainers but Lunati seems to be good option too.
Comp:
- Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 248/254
- Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .576/.582
- LSA/ICL: 110/106
- Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .016/.018
- RPM Range: 3000-6500
Lunati:
- Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 243/249
- Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .578/.585
- LSA/ICL: 110/106
- Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .016/.016
- RPM Range: 2800-6800
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I personally design all my own roller camshafts and have them ground by Comp Cams. But, if I was running 1.5 rockers and looking for an off-the-shelf cam for your engine, I'd think about this one.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-722113-08
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-722113-08
bOb shingler
Well-Known Member
IQ52 has it right!
Thanks, this looks really good. I think I will give this one a shot. Looks really good and price is also good.
Any idea why all these cams have so different lash needs?
Solid rollers on hydraulic roller by Lunati 0,008 cold lash, comp 0,016 lash(warm engine right?), Howards cam 0,022 (also warm?).
So in real cam is .578 lift and others are smaller lift cams, but does bigger lash mean louder valvetrain?
Not that I am worried about noise ;-)
These values are different from what I am used to on european solid cam cars.
Any idea why all these cams have so different lash needs?
Solid rollers on hydraulic roller by Lunati 0,008 cold lash, comp 0,016 lash(warm engine right?), Howards cam 0,022 (also warm?).
So in real cam is .578 lift and others are smaller lift cams, but does bigger lash mean louder valvetrain?
Not that I am worried about noise ;-)
These values are different from what I am used to on european solid cam cars.
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Thanks!
On the hydraulic roller the approach ramps are ground differently and are designed for zero lash with the hydraulic lifter. Comp Cams has some lobes in their catalog I will use in both hydraulic and solid roller applications When I run a solid roller on a hydraulic roller cam, with an iron head, I tighten the lash to .005". Comparing the solid cams, the cam manufacture may have slightly different ramps ground but I'm guessing that if you tighten the Howards lash to .016 you'll get something approaching the Comp XR292R cam but with a tighter lobe separation and a little more mid range torque. You could even loosen the lash, say, to .026" (max in my opinion) and make the cam smaller and see what it does. As far as more noise, there is that possibility, but it won't be significant.
Old Man Mopar
Righteous Dude
From a maintenance standpoint, how often should you have to change the bronze oil pump drive gear that is required to run a billet cam? I thought that I once read about a camshaft company that was pressing a cast iron gear on the camshaft to eliminate this concern but can't remember who it was or if it ever became widely available.
txstang84
Well-Known Member
I want to say comp's rollers don't require a bronze gear, but I may be confused. I know the crane hyd roller I have in a box requires it. I asked a similar question about the bronze gears and there was no real consistent answer. But, of a few answers I received, here and elsewhere, one was to check for timing consistency on a periodic basis and if it started giving any indication of a wander, change the gear...another person told me don't use one longer than 10K miles, regardless of how it looks...yet another said the biggest killer of bronze gears driven on the street was the backlash between the gears and proper positioning of the gear (by properly shaving the bushing) would maximize the mileage.
It is so important that you contact the people who make the cam and ask them, "What kind of gear does this cam require? The Mopar roller cams I get from Comp are billet steel and require a bronze gear. The Howards cam I recommended is billet steel=bronze gear. The last 383 Chevy roller cammed stroker we built was able to use the regular Chevy distributor gear. Best we all quit guessing! Crane makes a special intermediate shaft gear that isn't bronze but can be used on a billet steel cam core. Ask the people who make the camshaft! When you people ask these questions and I don't know the answer.......All I do is call the cam company! My long distance phone bill goes up because you're to cheap to make the call yourself and I'm just trying to be helpful. Sound pissed? I'm tired because I just fought all day long with a $5,500 aluminum block that clearly will take another $1,500 worth of machine work to make right. But that is the fact of high performance engine building!
Bronze gear it is ;-)
I will now slowly start to get parts gaskets etc to be able to start playing with it in winter. Next summer will be interesting for sure.
I just hope nothing else fails on the car...
This year was bad as I had to replace fuel pump (holley blue died), I blew u my converter and had to rebuild my 727. Fun part is that you do all this stuff and things not only work but also do it better ;-)
Also converter part of this story was a huge lesson for me on how important it is. Man the stuff you learn having cars like this!
Btw, what oil do you recommend for 8,75 rear end?
I will now slowly start to get parts gaskets etc to be able to start playing with it in winter. Next summer will be interesting for sure.
I just hope nothing else fails on the car...
This year was bad as I had to replace fuel pump (holley blue died), I blew u my converter and had to rebuild my 727. Fun part is that you do all this stuff and things not only work but also do it better ;-)
Also converter part of this story was a huge lesson for me on how important it is. Man the stuff you learn having cars like this!
Btw, what oil do you recommend for 8,75 rear end?
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
I use the Crane coated steel gears with Herbert billet cams, no problems here.
Maybe by now you might, but you probably won't hear a cam company other than Crane recommending the coated steel gear, liability issues. You can have a solid roller ground for you with a profile that checks the valve at or around the .550 , for the reasons you stated and in doing so you'll lengthen the life of the lifter because the profile for the stated rpm range will be less aggressive yet more than a fast rate solid. I do this a lot with small blocks with factory casting heads.
Maybe by now you might, but you probably won't hear a cam company other than Crane recommending the coated steel gear, liability issues. You can have a solid roller ground for you with a profile that checks the valve at or around the .550 , for the reasons you stated and in doing so you'll lengthen the life of the lifter because the profile for the stated rpm range will be less aggressive yet more than a fast rate solid. I do this a lot with small blocks with factory casting heads.
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Dcuda69
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I'm no expert for sure but I run a Comp solid roller in my Eddy headed,10.2:1 comp ratio 470". It's just a street toy but the cam has performed well and I like it's manners on the street. It idles decent at 900 with about 12" vacuum. It's pulls good from idle up to 6k with a ton of midrange(4sp/3:73 gear) It made north of 420 rwhp at 5500 rpm. I'm happy for a shelf cam. Maintenance has been minimal but I don't put a ton of miles on it. I use the recommended Comp lfters,Comp springs,Comp rockers and Smith Bros. pushrods. This cam:
COMP Cams: Xtreme Energy XR280R; 2000 - 6000 RPM Range
COMP Cams: Xtreme Energy XR280R; 2000 - 6000 RPM Range
famous bob
mopar misfit
check hughs engines
check the hughs engines web site. they offer a steel gear that will work w/ any cam , billet or cast. I have one in mine, w/ the xr 292 solid roller.
Thanks for all the feedback, it really helped me out! Hughes gear will be the way to go I guess.
I am slowly starting to gather parts.
Already have a list done and almost all money is ready.
Right now I am thinking weather I should take the motor out for winter and do more than planned.
All work with heads will be much easier this way, but...
I did not pay too much attention to my oil pressure till now, about a week after swapping rocker arms back from 1.5 to 1.6 I realized that perhaps my oil pressure is on the low side...?
I checked the gauge and it seems to show a bit less than the other one I have, but lets assume what you see it is correct. Should I check the main bearings and rod bearings?
When starting cold it shows 75psi.
When I am driving at 190 degrees it shows 60-65psi from around 2000 rpm, at WOT its 70-75. Pump is stock but with harder spring. It shows the same pressure at 210, when I drive it hard temp goes up to 200-210.
Car used to overheat badly when I got it, replacing radiator with much bigger and putting electric fan made it driveable.
I do have brand new HV Melling pump lying around so I could swap to see if there is difference but not sure what to think here. Should I be worried?
I think it showed around 5psi more with stock stamped rockers and as above with 1.5 and 1.6 roller rockers. I have one set of Mopar Performance (1.5) and one set of Crane (1.6) they look to be made by the same manufacturer, the only difference is anodizing finish color, blue with Mopar and gold with Crane.
I am slowly starting to gather parts.
Already have a list done and almost all money is ready.
Right now I am thinking weather I should take the motor out for winter and do more than planned.
All work with heads will be much easier this way, but...
I did not pay too much attention to my oil pressure till now, about a week after swapping rocker arms back from 1.5 to 1.6 I realized that perhaps my oil pressure is on the low side...?
I checked the gauge and it seems to show a bit less than the other one I have, but lets assume what you see it is correct. Should I check the main bearings and rod bearings?
When starting cold it shows 75psi.
When I am driving at 190 degrees it shows 60-65psi from around 2000 rpm, at WOT its 70-75. Pump is stock but with harder spring. It shows the same pressure at 210, when I drive it hard temp goes up to 200-210.
Car used to overheat badly when I got it, replacing radiator with much bigger and putting electric fan made it driveable.
I do have brand new HV Melling pump lying around so I could swap to see if there is difference but not sure what to think here. Should I be worried?
I think it showed around 5psi more with stock stamped rockers and as above with 1.5 and 1.6 roller rockers. I have one set of Mopar Performance (1.5) and one set of Crane (1.6) they look to be made by the same manufacturer, the only difference is anodizing finish color, blue with Mopar and gold with Crane.
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Top photo is in neutral, bottom is in gear.
After paying attention to oil gauge today I realized that if I sit at traffic lights it is 30psi in neutral and 25psi in gear. After giving it some serious beating everything goes a bit down to what you see in photos.
Should I expect higher oil pressure with solid cam vs hydraulic cam or no difference?
After paying attention to oil gauge today I realized that if I sit at traffic lights it is 30psi in neutral and 25psi in gear. After giving it some serious beating everything goes a bit down to what you see in photos.
Should I expect higher oil pressure with solid cam vs hydraulic cam or no difference?
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MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Your oil pressure is great/normal. Remember that psi will fluctuate with rpm's, so lower rpm's in gear vs idling at a higher rpm will reflect in the psi. Also with heat the oil will thin and the viscosity goes down, the oil psi will show lower. I wouldn't use a HV pump ubless the motor had some loose bearing clearances and a deep pan, they eat hp and heat the oil more. I have sb stroker in my daily , solid roller, full groove mains , ported heads, 10.1 and turns between 6-6700rpm's frequently...and it has a M72 stock replace pump. Last refresh the bearings looked perfect. Holds about 27- 30 psi at hot idle after running it hard and the engine temp stays at 185-190.
Dcuda69
Well-Known Member
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That Howards looks like a great grind...I'm sure it'll do what you want it to do. Can't go wrong with recommendations from IQ52...he knows his stuff for sure. Good luck and post back when you get it all together!
I will post back only in spring next year, but for sure I will report on whats the end result.
Cant wait to get it started.
Id probably do it this year but cant expect parts to be here earlier than in a month...
Cant wait to get it started.
Id probably do it this year but cant expect parts to be here earlier than in a month...
Coming back to lifters...
Are Howards roller lifters a good choice?
1: 91751 StreetMax
Howards Cams, Street Max Mechanical Roller Lifters - Competition Products
Diameter: .903"
Weight: 333g
Wheel Diameter: .700"
Seat Height: 2.569"
2: 91727 SportMax
Howards, Vertical Bar Mechanical Roller Lifters, Chrysler BB - Competition Products
Diameter: .904"
Weight: 250g
Wheel Diameter: .750"
Seat Height: 1.773"
3: Lunati
Lunati Vertical Bar Roller Lifters 72421-16 Mopar 383-440 V8 FREE SHIPPING
Diameter: .903"
Weight: 247g
Wheel Diameter: .750"
Seat Height: 1.83"
I probably should look at weight also?
Looking at seat height I can keep my pushrods with Lunatis and need to shorten with StreetMax Howards...
Are Howards roller lifters a good choice?
1: 91751 StreetMax
Howards Cams, Street Max Mechanical Roller Lifters - Competition Products
Diameter: .903"
Weight: 333g
Wheel Diameter: .700"
Seat Height: 2.569"
2: 91727 SportMax
Howards, Vertical Bar Mechanical Roller Lifters, Chrysler BB - Competition Products
Diameter: .904"
Weight: 250g
Wheel Diameter: .750"
Seat Height: 1.773"
3: Lunati
Lunati Vertical Bar Roller Lifters 72421-16 Mopar 383-440 V8 FREE SHIPPING
Diameter: .903"
Weight: 247g
Wheel Diameter: .750"
Seat Height: 1.83"
I probably should look at weight also?
Looking at seat height I can keep my pushrods with Lunatis and need to shorten with StreetMax Howards...
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MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Interesting note here, those Howard lifters look like Morrel lifters with flat tie bars. Morrel makes roller lifters for about all the brands you just posted.lol contact Herbert cams and ask about the Morrel solid rollers, they have them for 296.00 when I last bought stock a yr ago.
Small update:
Finaly I decided to take the heads off and do all this the right way, valve stems will be trimmed and shortened. Machining in my country is still pretty reasonable at around 150$ for both heads.
Cam will be mentioned above Howard's solid roller with .600 lift but I will use it with 1.6 roller rockers making it .640 lift on intake and exhaust. Excluding .022 lash it will be effective .618 cam.
For springs I will use Howard's double springs rated:
- 198@1.880"
- 489@1.240"
Rev limitter will be set to 6400 with this cam.
Can someone let me know how 1.6 rockers affect cam duration?
if cam is 245/253 @ .050 with 1.5 rockers what is the duration at .050 with 1.6 rockers?
Advertised duration for this cam is 277/285.
I already have all the parts excluding lifters.
Finaly I decided to take the heads off and do all this the right way, valve stems will be trimmed and shortened. Machining in my country is still pretty reasonable at around 150$ for both heads.
Cam will be mentioned above Howard's solid roller with .600 lift but I will use it with 1.6 roller rockers making it .640 lift on intake and exhaust. Excluding .022 lash it will be effective .618 cam.
For springs I will use Howard's double springs rated:
- 198@1.880"
- 489@1.240"
Rev limitter will be set to 6400 with this cam.
Can someone let me know how 1.6 rockers affect cam duration?
if cam is 245/253 @ .050 with 1.5 rockers what is the duration at .050 with 1.6 rockers?
Advertised duration for this cam is 277/285.
I already have all the parts excluding lifters.
About 2 degrees at .050" but the area under the curve changes more as you go up in lift.
This cam is a little bit bigger than yours but you will get some idea of the duration change. Be sure to read the full thread to get valve lash change information.
Rocker ratio's effect on duration • Speed Talk
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