I need opinions on this 318 build

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hoosierdaddy

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I bought a 72 Duster with rebuilt never run 318 stock bottom end , 340 J heads with big valves , Comp Cam 20-243-4 , edy 1406, fresh 727 with a TCI 2600-2800 stall converter . I did the initial break in and the cam is very rowdy which I expected , we couldn't get the engine to idle but my fuel pressure was to high . Nothing beyond what I described is built (rear end/gears) . I guess my question is it possible to get this combination to work together happily or do I move on to different cam ? Primary use street with some track time in the future .
 
Hi Hoosier,

If you post the cam specs rather than the part number people will be more likely to help you. Don't make them work more than they have to if you want them to help you.

Hard heads...

Also, you may want to mention your timing and exhaust and intake and carb cfm, it is just more information for the people that will try to help you. Draw a picture with words, completely describing your drivetrain and vehicle weight, suspension too since you are gonna be hitting the track.

Oh, remember to say, 'thank you,' especially to RRR because he is grumpy. :poke:
 
Hi Hoosier,

If you post the cam specs rather than the part number people will be more likely to help you. Don't make them work more than they have to if you want them to help you.

Also, you may want to mention your timing and exhaust and intake and carb cfm, it is just more information for the people that will try to help you. Draw a picture with words, completely describing your drivetrain and vehicle weight, suspension too since you are gonna be hitting the track.

Oh, remember to say, 'thank you,' especially to RRR because he is grumpy. :poke:

Oh, remember to say, 'thank you,' especially to RRR because he is grumpy. :poke:

That was totally unnecessary but totally TRUE!!!:rofl: Although he is a pretty smart dude when it comes to Mopars and cams!!

treblig
 
I have a question, what is the static compression ratio? Cc of the combustion chamber and type of piston? Are the pistons below the deck or domed? If your static compression is too low, you may be able to tune yhe timing and carb where it will start and idle fine, but it is a mis matched combination of parts that will never be ideal.
 
I just looked up that cam, Comp recommends 9.5-10.5:1 compression, 3000-3500 stall converter. Gears would need to be at least 3.92 for a small tire. More tire will need more gear.
 
Rowdy.. I like that term! LOL

Durations are 292 advertised, 244 @.050"; it's is gonna have a DCR of LESS than 6.0..... that will make you need the patience of Job if you drive off from a stop normally or pretend that you have a 170 /6.... it'll take some goodly RPM's to come up on the torque curve. And fuel economy will not be good. This is a head/cam combo for the strip. And the carb does not really match up well IMHO; it is better matched to a smaller cam.

Perhaps try it and see what YOU think. I know I'd not like it for street use; I would expect it to bog before taking off rather than leaping forward at the touch of the throttle, unless you rev it with the brakes on, and then hit the throttle to get up to the TC locking and the rear wheels spinning to keep the revs up to be on the torque curve .... not my idea of street driving. But, heck, you might like it fine.

Your static CR (SCR) is around 7.5 to start with which is lower than a stock 318, and putting in the large cam kills the dynamic CR (DCR) and low RPM torque. It's gonna take a very small cam to get the DCR even up into the high 6's. Even 256 advertised duration cam with LSA at 112 and a 104 ICL, with .028" thick head gaskets, will get you to a 6.7 DCR; you cranking compression will then be the same at a stock 318, so you could then expect a similar low RPM take-off torque if you had the stock TC. (Which I know you don't; this is just a point of comparison.)

Have you considered milling the heads? That helps to partially address the basic issue: low SCR. That will help for all your planned uses. I'd be looking at a fair amount, like .040"-.060". A .050" shave on the heads would put your DCR into the 7.2-7.3 range with the small cam mentioned above. More torque than a stock 318 now. And with the higher stall TC that you have, now you can move back up larger in cam, and not compromise low RPM torque so badly, and get it to take off better.

And BTW, I have had your engine..... 7.6 SCR with a 300 duration cam..... it did not get up on the torque curve until 3800 RPM. The only thing that saved it was that the engine was good to 8K RPM all day long, and I raced it. But driving around, if you pushed on the throttle at 2500 RPM for example, it would just look at you and go 'blaaaaaaahhhh' for a while....
 
Thanks to everyone for the response . I honestly can't answer a lot of the questions because I don't have enough info on the build . My limited engine building knowledge tells me the cam is to big , carb to small , CR is in the dumps and i have a 2600-2800 stall converter that may be over kill for a better suited cam . nm9stheham seems to be spot on . I'm going to look for a new cam kit that is better suited . What ever that is .
 
What is your gear ratio and cars weight?
Type of useage the car see's.
 
I'd keep your converter. Figure out your axle gears and size tire you want to run. Milling of the heads to reduce the chamber volume some and thin head gaskets as suggested is a step in the right direction. A 256 duration cam would not be overkill and a good recommendation. I have the same 1406 edelbrock carb on my 318 with stock cam, thinking of putting my Holley 670 back on. The holley doesn't get as good of mileage but it has a much better throttle response and tunability.
 
2 things that will have the most effect aside from tuning in the combo.

Gears Or Cam
Either get 3.91 gears or dump that cam for something smaller in duration @.050
Change one of those if you really want it to perform Is all I can say.
 
Let me start over a bit , the car is an unfinished project that i recently purchased . The PO rebuilt the motor and had a 727 transmission built and then installed everything . I only have basic info on the motor build . Nothing was plumbed so I got everything done so I could break in the cam and just check the general health of the motor . As far as gears the car has a bone stock 8 1/4 . What I see in the future is no more than 3:91 gears and really leaning towards 3:55 if I can make them work and 15" wheels . Primary use will be street /cruise with occasional track time .
 
Let me start over a bit , the car is an unfinished project that i recently purchased . The PO rebuilt the motor and had a 727 transmission built and then installed everything . I only have basic info on the motor build . Nothing was plumbed so I got everything done so I could break in the cam and just check the general health of the motor . As far as gears the car has a bone stock 8 1/4 . What I see in the future is no more than 3:91 gears and really leaning towards 3:55 if I can make them work and 15" wheels . Primary use will be street /cruise with occasional track time .

This is seriously messed up. There are only 3 cures;
1)lots more compression; more static and more dynamic
2)lots more compression; more static and more dynamic
3)lots more compression; more static and more dynamic
After that maybe you get to keep that 2800,etc,

BTW, what nm9 said is bang-on. A Dcr in the high 6s puts your VP down under 71, living among weak 6 bangers, and 4s.
Hi-performance starts at around 160. Modest around 140, lowly around 120,sucks pretty bad at 100, Wish I had never been born at under 90,lol.

Now; you can get your teener wound up tight and show pretty good, but getting going will be almost embarrassing, until your TC and gears are so big, the car become a track only car.

Your #1 priority is to start over with hi-compression pistons. And #2 is to get a more street-friendly cam.

Here's a fun recipe; 10/0 Scr and a 268* cam. The Dcr works out to about 8.2@165psi and a VP of 128. So you are between Modest and Lowly.

Or here's another, geared more to a DD; an Scr of 9.5 with a 256* cam puts your Dcr at 8.2@165psi and a VP of 134, so you're bottom end is waking up.

Or if you want to blow some Mustangs away; How about a 4"stroker kit and keep the 292* cam; You will need a 4" arm and an Scr of 10.9 to get a Dcr of 8.2@165psi and a VP of 141. Now your 388cuber is rocking.

For comparison, here's a 416 cuber at 10.0 and a 272* cam. The Dcr comes in at 8.2@165psi with a VP of 166

Notice I kept the Dcr and cylinder pressure street and iron head friendly, and as good as identical,so;all of these should run on pumpgas.

Ok one more; the stock original engine with the stock 240* cam, and an Scr of
8.0, will get you a Dcr of 7.0@135psi, and a VP of 113; that's pretty close to lowly! Yet light years ahead of 71 :( Notice the cylinder pressure is pretty good. Notice also that the VP is pretty low. The VP gives us an idea of how the engine will perform in day to day useage. You can read about it here;
V/P Index Calculation


The more cylinder pressure your engine makes, generally the more driveable it will be, ie more pressure takes off harder. This makes the TC and gear requirements easier to target. But there is a limit to how much pressure you can run and that is detonation. This must be avoided at all costs. 165psi is about the limit for iron heads and pump gas.

Dcr is a snapshot of how performance oriented the engine is, and is especially keen at determining what octane rating you will need. As always the higher the better, with 8.2 being about the limit for pump gas/iron.

With your stated useage, you don't really have to push the envelope. And with open-chamber heads, I recommend you don't.
Re-formatting your engine, the Scr,Dcr,and cam selection should be a carefully orchestrated endeavor. Those guys all have to play nice together.To do otherwise is to risk the combo you now have. But hey, you have no place to go but better!

Here's what an original 225 looks like;
Static compression ratio of 8.2:1, Dcr of 7.25@141psi, and a VP of 82..
:(
82 is bigger than 71,lol
 
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Let me start over a bit , the car is an unfinished project that i recently purchased . The PO rebuilt the motor and had a 727 transmission built and then installed everything . I only have basic info on the motor build . Nothing was plumbed so I got everything done so I could break in the cam and just check the general health of the motor . As far as gears the car has a bone stock 8 1/4 . What I see in the future is no more than 3:91 gears and really leaning towards 3:55 if I can make them work and 15" wheels . Primary use will be street /cruise with occasional track time .
Based on the latter idea of 15" wheels/tires and 3.55 rear gear, mill those heads as much as you dare and go pretty small on the cam.... like in the 248 to 260 advertised duration range IMHO. I also suspect that a TC change may be in order if you go with 3.55 gears and these tire..... the engine will be barely turning enough RPM's to get to a 2600 RPM TC lock at 60 MPH. The 3.91 might be a better choice just because of this; I would not normally even think of a 3.91 for street use, but you're stuck in a tight corner of the performance map to start with, with that low SCR. And, it kinda depends on your streets, and speeds and how you like to drive.

Once you go to the smaller cams to move the start of the torque curve down, then the top end RPM drops. If you make the cam big, then the low end of the torque band moves up in RPM as the top end moves up. Either way, the price paid for a low CR is a smaller than average max to min useful RPM ratio; that works in some racing formats but is a substantial disadvantage in typical street use, where a flexible engine with a wide RPM range is pretty handy....
 
Some of the most fun I have ever had was with a factory stock long-block teener, with headers and a TQ. Installed with a 2800TC and a 9.73 starter gear. That was 3.55s and a A998 non-lockup.Banging her down at 30, she was ready to fly.
Course it was also fun with 3.91s and 4.30s. But one winter I put 2.76s in her. Listening to the TQ-moan from near a dead-stop to 65mpg was real hoot for like three minutes,lol. Stop the car! let's do it again.I couldn't get enough of it. Top of first was over 50mph, and second gear was good to over 90mph.A stock 318 takes a really really long time to get there, but what a hoot. The pay-back was the point-to-point fuel mileage. That was a really good winter-motor.
 

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