IMM Engines 408 build

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mullinax95 said:
I'm not overly upset about it... like throwing things and such..lol
Crap happens ... but it seems to always happen to me.
I don't know if it has anything to do with it but I'm using 10W/30 Joe Gibbs Driven oil.
Oil pressure always looks good.
Sometimes the tapping goes away and the engine runs slightly.... I mean most of the time there is no tapping. I just got lucky and caught it while I took the video.

What's you opinion on Rhodes V-max lifters?
If I use these they are adjustable, more vacuum, and torque... so they say.
I'm afraid to use low quality lifters now and it seems like these lifters don't give any trouble by what others have said. I realize the have a mechanical sound... I don't think that will manner but I have never heard a engine with these type lifters.
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I've used Crane replacement hyd. rollers before in more race type builds, with great success but they are pricey...I'll sell them to you at my cost and have them shipped to you on my dime if you want them. Or I can send you some Melling lifters that others say worked well for them free....let me know.
 
RAMM said:
You can put your earmuff right on the valvecover for a quick hear see but I use a stethoscope numerous times throughout the course of a dyno session and if it doesn't sound like a sewing machine under the covers-somethings wrong. Even a solid cam that is adjusted right and happy will sound like this. p.s. I'm starting to hate hydraulics for anything but the most mild of applications. So here's Brian covering all of his bases, dyno test and all. He ships the engine and customer installs it and bam minor but annoying problem right out of the gate. Yup seems about right. This trade....this trade. J.Rob
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Every now and then we have a lifter that does this, however usually it does it before we ship the engine. I put an honest 1-2 hours on an engine during break in, and tuning session at a minimum....I like to also try and let the engine sit overnight and resume testing the next day. I've found this really helps with things that might go wrong so we can make changes before we ship the engine. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't...but I stand behind our engines, and if there's a bad lifter, we'll make it right!
 
ou812 said:
I've used Crane replacement hyd. rollers before in more race type builds, with great success but they are pricey...I'll sell them to you at my cost and have them shipped to you on my dime if you want them. Or I can send you some Melling lifters that others say worked well for them free....let me know.
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I really really appreciate it!

First and foremost I do not want to have to remove the heads to get the lifters changed out. I have never removed lifters on a Magnum with the heads on especially since the engine is installed. I have read that it is a struggle with the stock type lifters but it can be done. It would be very interesting getting to the back head bolts in my Dodge Ram. Another words if the Cranes require removing the heads then I will take the Mellings.

Which Crane lifters are the ones you're talking about?

If you don't mind email or private message me the price for the Crane lifters if they will go in without removing the heads.
THANKS!
 
Got the exhaust finished... Pacesetter long tube headers, no cat, X-pipe, two single chamber mufflers.
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Cudafever said:
Did this fix your lifter tick?
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Nope... the tick comes and goes. It's not as loud as it was in the video. I cranked the truck up yesterday and could hear it ticking away. I can hear the injectors firing, the lifter tapping, and the headers flowing exhaust.... that's how good I've gotten on listening for noises...:D
I used Remflex header gaskets this time with these new headers... I don't think they are leaking..:p
 
ou812 said:
Every now and then we have a lifter that does this, however usually it does it before we ship the engine. I put an honest 1-2 hours on an engine during break in, and tuning session at a minimum....I like to also try and let the engine sit overnight and resume testing the next day. I've found this really helps with things that might go wrong so we can make changes before we ship the engine. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't...but I stand behind our engines, and if there's a bad lifter, we'll make it right!
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Dunno if this will help Mullinax feel any better, but the new Crane flat hydraulics my son and I put in his 340 were fine up front but developed a tick after a few hundred miles and at about 800 miles, one of them was deadsville. The bad one felt like yours: soft all the time, even after running. We could hear it in one side of the exhaust. (Off came the intake due to Edelbrock heads.) Crane replaced it plus another marginal one, no questions asked, so I think they see this regularly now.

So the mileage when it happens seems to be rather random; it can be fine out of the shop and then go many miles later; sounds like your situation.

I've put in a couple of dozen new hydraulic sets over 40+ years or so in a variety of medium performance engines, and never looked back at a single one until about 10 year ago, and it seems to have gotten progressively worse. IMHO, the 'tricks of the trade' for hydraulics have been lost or thrown out of the window, and it is part of the scene for hydraulics anymore and goes back to the manufacturing/design/materials selection. Sad to see it.

If I ever build any engines for others after I retire (low-po stuff), I may just refuse to warranty hydraulic lifters, they way they are now.
 
I've just about had it up to here with hydraulic lifters. I've already had a frick'n nightmare with Hughes roller lifters. Remember this: Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!

Had to remove the intake AND the Edelbrock head to get the lifters changed out while the engine was still in the car!
Now here I go again.
Anyways... I have a brand new set of Melling lifters that Brian sent.
Is there a way they can be checked before I install them?:(
I don't pump up lifters submerged in oil since I found this on Hughes website "DO NOT fill, pump-up, or soak any hydraulic lifters before installation".
I assume they should know the proper way of doing things.
 
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Understood.

The only way I can think to check them is to put oil in them and put a few hundred lbs of pressure on the plungers, and see if they hold. But since the ones you already have seem to have been good out of the box at IMM, then even that is not a guarantee.

In the old days, it was common to pre-fill lifters. The best explanation I have seen for not doing it with high lift cams is that it can hold the valves open and slam a valve into a piston. Since you probably have a high lift cam, that seems to be the wise course.

So IMHO that is 2 strikes against doing anything with them up-front. Maybe disassemble and clean them out thoroughly?

The good news: Your high frequency hearing is still good!
 
mullinax95 said:
I've just about had it up to here with hydraulic lifters. I've already had a frick'n nightmare with Hughes roller lifters. Remember this: Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!

Had to remove the intake AND the head to get the lifters changed out while the engine was still in the car!
Now here I go again.
Anyways... I have a brand new set of Melling lifters that Brian sent.
Is there a way they can be checked before I install them?:(
I don't pump up lifters submerged in oil since I found this on Hughes website "DO NOT fill, pump-up, or soak any hydraulic lifters before installation".
I assume they should know the proper way of doing things.
Click to expand...
I don`t know crap about small blocks . that being said, why do u have to pull one head to remove the lifters, why cant u just remove the intake and pull them out ?????
 
My mellings went in with EQ heads in place, but i don't know if there is enough room if a thin gasket is used or the block is decked more than a cleanup.
The only way to set preload with adjustable rockers perfectly is to do it with the lifters empty of oil. I went through the firing order and tightened them till my fingers couldn't rotate the pushrod, then backed them off a certain amount.
 
famous bob said:
I don`t know crap about small blocks . that being said, why do u have to pull one head to remove the lifters, why cant u just remove the intake and pull them out ?????
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My apologies ... it was a Edelbrock head in which require lifting out of the way so the lifters can be inserted in the bores. Most of the time iron heads have enough room to squeeze the lifter into place. I've edited my post.
 
If you do have pre oiled lifters just turn the motor over a quarter turn or less at a time resting between turns to let the lifters bled down
you have to go around at least twice
 
ou812 said:
I've used Crane replacement hyd. rollers before in more race type builds, with great success but they are pricey...I'll sell them to you at my cost and have them shipped to you on my dime if you want them. Or I can send you some Melling lifters that others say worked well for them free....let me know.
Click to expand...

You are a good man Brian. Good to see some still stand behind their work, even when the product causing the problem was not made by them.
 
mullinax95 said:
I've just about had it up to here with hydraulic lifters. I've already had a frick'n nightmare with Hughes roller lifters. Remember this: Hughes "retro fit" lifter not pumping up!

Had to remove the intake AND the Edelbrock head to get the lifters changed out while the engine was still in the car!
Now here I go again.
Anyways... I have a brand new set of Melling lifters that Brian sent.
Is there a way they can be checked before I install them?:(
I don't pump up lifters submerged in oil since I found this on Hughes website "DO NOT fill, pump-up, or soak any hydraulic lifters before installation".
I assume they should know the proper way of doing things.
Click to expand...
I was gonna say you've already been through this with the hughes lifters as I have in my 408 with the hughes crap. I'm thinking of going with crane lifters too but am not sure if the oil band will be exposed at max lift of my cam. Maybe I'll just get a pair and see how they fit. Hydraulic roller lifters in an LA seem to be a crap shoot if you read the forums.
 
lomchivok said:
I was gonna say you've already been through this with the hughes lifters as I have in my 408 with the hughes crap. I'm thinking of going with crane lifters too but am not sure if the oil band will be exposed at max lift of my cam. Maybe I'll just get a pair and see how they fit. Hydraulic roller lifters in an LA seem to be a crap shoot if you read the forums.
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After I changed the retro fit lifters out that would not pump up in the engine in the cuda...I have not had anymore issues. Been driving it pretty good bit too.
Drove the cuda today matter a fact. lol
Have to run heaps of preload with the retrofit lifters and of course they have to be machined correctly internally.... other than that they work.
 
I've been talking to Ryan Hogan (tuner guy) over the phone and we discussed cams for my engine. My thinking was that I need to stay in the 112-114 LSA range because this engine will be fuel injected. The ECM would not work correctly with a LSA in narrower than that range. He told me that he can tune any cam to work with the ECM.
We decided on a custom ground cam from Comp Cams in their XFI series which works with fuel injection. The cam will have 108 LSA.

Cam specs: 230/236@.050 duration .576/.571 lift 108 LSA

Going by Wallace Racing Dynamic Calculator the V/P index will go from 127 to 147... so another words this new cam should work better.

The new lifters IMM sent me will get installed when I switch out the cams. I will be glad when I get the cam installed and the engine tuned properly.

Another thing is I had Flowtech shorty headers since I have a Dodge Ram. The tuner guy said the shorties would be a "bottle neck" for this engine that I needed to go with long tube headers. I wasn't really sure about finding long tube headers for my 03 Ram that would fit without a bunch of headaches. In 03 Dodge switched from the 5.9 to the Hemi engine and finding headers or anything else most times to fit my truck in that year range is not easy.
I decided to purchase the ceramic coated long tube Pacesetter headers in the 96-01 range and see if they would fit since they didn't have headers listed for 03 year. The headers fell in and had not one issue (picture above).
 
Keep us posted.... (BTW, the Wallace DCR calculator computes cranking pressure, not V/P index.)

Sounds like your new cam duration is a lot shorter if the cranking pressure is going up that much.
 
nm9stheham said:
Keep us posted.... (BTW, the Wallace DCR calculator computes cranking pressure, not V/P index.)

Sounds like your new cam duration is a lot shorter if the cranking pressure is going up that much.
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The duration is more on the new cam but the LSA went from 112 to 108... this might have something to do with it. Old duration was 226 the new is 230... not that much difference but....

It actually calculates both... here is a example .. the V/P is at the bottom

Static compression ratio of 9.7:1.
Effective stroke is 3.15 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.85:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 151.86 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 7.69 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 146
 
mullinax95 said:
The duration is more on the new cam but the LSA went from 112 to 108... this might have something to do with it. Old duration was 226 the new is 230... not that much difference but....

It actually calculates both... here is a example .. the V/P is at the bottom

Static compression ratio of 9.7:1.
Effective stroke is 3.15 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.85:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 151.86 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 7.69 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 146
Click to expand...


Where did you find this calculator? I don't see it on the Wallace site.
 
yellow rose said:
Where did you find this calculator? I don't see it on the Wallace site.
Click to expand...
Here: Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator

mullinax95 said:
The duration is more on the new cam but the LSA went from 112 to 108... this might have something to do with it. Old duration was 226 the new is 230... not that much difference but....

It actually calculates both... here is a example .. the V/P is at the bottom

Static compression ratio of 9.7:1.
Effective stroke is 3.15 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.85:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 151.86 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 7.69 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 146
Click to expand...
OK, I just have zoned out on the V/P number being there! (I don't pay much attention to it.)

I have run your 2 cams and still don't see nearly as much of a difference in DCR or V/P as you show in post #92 .... at most, I find the change is from 140 to 147 due to the LSA change alone. HOWEVER, I am guessing that both have similar ramps from .050" to advertised but that is just an assumption... I don't have any advertised numbers to know for sure and the old cam may be much longer on advertised; that moves out the intake closing a lot more than I am assuming.

BTW, I use a different calculator to get to DCR
 
For those of us that live above sea level, it's nice when a calculation considers the thing we fight most. For me, 6600 feet above sea level.:thumbsup:
 
why use a chevy lobe in your MOPAR? XFI is just hype
pick your cam events
you do not design for LSA or overlap- it's a result not an input
 
Got the new cam and Melling lifters installed... I am in shock on how quite the engine runs now. I didn't realize how noisy the old lifters were until after comparisons. However instead of pre load of 3/4 turn I went 1 1/4 so this might have something to do with it... I don't know. IMM said they go 3/4 turn but can go up to 2 turns max.
As I was removing the old lifters noticed that I could not press down on the plunger inside of the lifters.... except one... it moved without problems at all.... came from the side that was tapping. Lifter might decided to bleed down much faster than the others but didn't seem right. ??

I don't understand why others have mentioned that changing out lifters is hard on the magnums with the heads installed. I didn't have a bit of trouble... they must be talking about Eddy heads.

New custom XFI cam specs: .230/.236 @.50 .577/.572 108LSA

Old cam:112 LSA: Good drivability. Nitrous/Blower. Idle quality and vacuum not as good as a 114 LSA but better than a 110 LSA.

New cam:108 LSA: Aggressive; typically best hp and torque. Moves torque to lower RPM; increases maximum torque; narrows Power band; idle vacuum is reduced; idle quality suffers. Definitely requires tuning. :p

Went with 108 so the torque will come in at lower RPM for this heavy truck.

Cam has a noticeable idle to it now and the off idle throttle response is lighting quick. However it definitely needs a tune now. With the old cam 112lsa it wasn't that bad but with the new 108lsa the computer is struggling. Got in contact with Ryan at Flyn Ryan Performance and sent him some money... shouldn't be to much longer now. :D

I still have not got to install the Ford Racing injectors Ryan has recommended because I'm afraid it will run to rich until he starts tuning. These injectors are 39lb compared to 27lb... we'll see.
 
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