Need cam ideas for my 318 Duster

[273]

People build tons of 400 ish hp 289/306 if you can't do similar with a 318 something wrong.

 

[cookietruck]

I would just choose a solid flat tappet cam that gets you the power band you want.
Maybe a cam 230-236@.050 solid lifter lobe for .875 lifters so the lobe is pretty aggressive.
Comp has alot, Howards and Bullet cams too.
You can find their lobe catalogs on their websites.

Here is a chrysler lobe.
Probably a touch bigger than i would go in a 318

DODGE Howards Cams 710862-08 Howards Cams Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Howards Cams Mechanical Flat Tappet Camshafts with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Camshafts at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

 

[273]

Yes AJ on the street, your not gonna spend much time at peak hp and or rpm.

Say stall (2500-3500 rpm) to shift points (5500-6500 rpm) say gonna spend a lot of time 3500-4500 rpm say 4000 rpm average. How do you make most possible power around that rpm and or rpm range? Easily more torque and where do decently built street engines make peak torque? It seem generally at those rpms. So how to make even more power around 4000 rpm without going bigger or non NA, build to a higher lbs-ft per cid, hows that done? generally better top end, This idea building to 5500-6000+ rpms doesn't help mid range power is ridiculous, peak torque generally happens 1000-2000 rpms lower say 1500 rpm average than peak hp, so peak torque at 4000 rpms puts peak hp between 5000-6000 rpms and shift points 5500-6500 rpms.

So what about under peak torque an engine generally still makes decent torque 1000-1500+ rpms under peak, and generally way more than a stock 2bbl version of that engine would.

Question how much cam is acceptable to the OP in idle and general driveability?
Performance wise the engine should be fine.

And this 2.02 is too big and too much shrouding is mostly nonsense, that's the minimum most performance heads come with, it is what it is and will be fine.

At street rpms idle to 5000/6500+ rpms, so rpms are somewhat fixed but some room for overlap in potential, so basically around 20 cid is ruffly considered a step up in performance potential starting at 170/198/225 skip a few 273 skip a few 318/340/360/383/400/413/426/440 etc.. 318 ain't at the bottom or top it's in the upper middle.

 

[rumblefish360]

If 45>60mph is yur target,
IMHO you may be going about this all wrong.
Consider what rpm you will be turning, then build your engine to make power at that rpm, not at mega-rpm where you might only be one time, and spinning so. At the top of first gear, who cares how much power you have if the tires are spinning......
With 3.91s and 28s, First gear(2.45) tops out at ~5500=43mph.

Why does 1st top out at 5500?
This and the rest of your calculations are off.

On the 1>2 shift the rpm drops to .592 x 5500=3250rpm, and so yur engine needs power at 3250 and NOT at 5500. 3250 is a tuff place to be, cuz most of the time, it's not ready for full-power timing yet, at least not with iron heads and open chambers.

He has Edelbrock heads

and Honestly, if I had that gearing problem and stuck with a 318, I would be very very careful.
Obviously 4.88s would be better, but with those, First gear is pretty useless. and hi-way cruising is out.

He is t doing the Hwy at all. He said that earlier.

That 1-2 split is just to big,

On an 727 automatic? What has changed for his 727 that everyone else has not?

and the only way around it is a high-stall TC.

His is a 2800/3200. Sounds like average middle of the road converter to me. This kind of stall has been used in the 70’s all day long.

IMO if yur gonna do something like this, I would stall it up quite a bit higher, and keep the 3.91s.
Or
go with 3.23s and get 60= about 6200 at the top of First-gear. To go 6200 your power-peak can be centered around 5700. With a torque peak around 4200, which might like a stall around 3400, for a One-gear car.
So, you get the idea.
Or
just bite the bullet and install a bigger engine which will inherently have more bottom end torque, allowing you to run less gear, and less cam.

Normally an excellent idea except he is using what he has already built. So, your now suggesting to throw away a perfectly good wngine and go with another larger one.

Or do what I did, which was to install a 4-speed, which has a better 1>2 split(.72), for less Rpm drop on the 1>2 shift.
Well, actually I did both, lol. and now I can spin the the tires thru almost three gears, lol. That's not a brag,

Not a brag but you state it all the time and yet, YET, warn against it souring the idea and darn near make fun of them like they have no control over their right foot.

Hypocrite

I'm just saying there comes a point where you get into traction issues;

I agree even with stock engines. That’s a right foot control issue when traction gives up.

and there's no point in having all that power, just to put it into tiresmoke.
With a standard 2.66 low 4-speed, the 1>2 rpm drop is 72% which is from say 5600 to 4040, for a powerband requirement of just 1600, so now yur 318 does not need that big cam any more, for the same zero to 60 ET.
And a smaller cam will have an earlier-closing intake even, and so, a higher pressure. and now you can run a proper gear ratio combo, to hit 60 at a more advantageous rpm. and that means, you might get a hiway cruiser out of the deal.
So many ideas.
For this combo, alloy heads, just for the compression ratio, is IMO, not gonna make a big difference, because, in the first place alloy heads NEED more CCP

Incorrect and proven over and over here on FABO by several engine builders and done through out the years by several big publications and speed shops.

Stop spreading misinformation!

just to break even with a good iron set. They say you need at least a half a point more with alloys, but in a Streeter, I think a FULL point would be more like it.
Then you have the 2.02 valve issue, as to shrouding, to deal with,

Valve shrouding is an over rated issue yet proven over ….

Awe heck, just read the reply I wrote above.

Stop spreading fear and misinformation

and finally, if yur only gonna Power-peak at 5500, then you don't even need those big valves. Because, again, yur not gonna be at 5600 in Second@60mph, unless yur running 4.10s, and there goes your cruise-rpm again.

Why does gear ratio have to do with the ability to turn rpm?
More misinformation

I went thru all this in 1999, and I figured it out real quick, that I would need a 5-Speed manual and a 360, to cover all the bases, to be able to use a small cam, running low-grade gas, and still be in the 12s which is fast enough for me. And still make fuel-economy that even 318 guys can't touch.

LMAO-lies

People call me a 318 hater,

Because you are and have demonstrated it over and over

and this is why; Yur trying for BB results with an engine size that is just too small, IMO, for what you want it do.

So your saying a 318 can not run 12’a now?

I mean, if all you want to do with your 318, is one thing; like be real fast from zero to 60, OK I get it. Pressure it up, cam it up, stall it up, and gear it up, those are the right things to do.
But in the end, when you add up all those other costs, and see how focused your combo is, and how much gas it drinks just driving it around the block, and how nearly useless 4.88s are on the street, and the thought comes to you that you mightabin way happier with a bigger engine,
please don't hate me, lol.

One more time, consider your trans and rear gears, and build to the gears.

3.91’s are better but lack the torque release to make the ET at the track. 3.91’s for the street.

As to headgaskets

at zero-deck and closed chambers, your compressed gasket thickness becomes your Quench. This dimension must be large enough that at rpm and hot, the pistons do not bang into the head, bt not more than what will create detonation for you. Most guys target .040. Brave Dumbazzes like me push envelope down to .028, and I got away with it.
Your results may vary, but not a chance would spend more than what the FellPros can do for you.
The point is, at zerodeck, you cannot run Piston to head clearance of .020 and not expect to break something. And there is no need to go that extreme.
Like I said earlier, your swept area is just too small to go for the big pressure numbers, with the cam that you have in mind..

He is working with what he has already and it’s not a favorable start but workable.

 

[AJ/FormS]

And there you have it folks, Rumble spent all afternoon taking my post apart........ again
I guess business is slow. .........

 

[AJ/FormS]

There's so many false assertion here don't even know where to start. Why do you insist on shitting on everyone that wants to build a 318, we get it you don't think there a good platform to build power from.

Does a Smaller engine generally make less power at similar rpms (powerband) as a larger engine yes and everyone knows that, if you want a smaller to make similar power as the larger engine it got to spin higher basically the cid percentage difference and or be more efficient. If the OP is fine with that why can't you guys?

The dudes engine is only 17 cid (5%) smaller than a 340 it's gonna behave similar.

Did you not read the whole post? back up the bus.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I want a cam for my 318 and need some advice.
I want my Duster to be an easy mannered street toy for day trips and once a while to the strip. My goal is to run a high 7 on 1/8 mile with a car that works good as a daily driver.

Friend;
Sorry if I offended you,
I gave advice that at least two guys can't get past. Two very smart guys. So, I must be wrong.
But since I disagree and stand by what I said, I'm not taking it down.
You asked for advice, and I gave it.
I'm not coming back to this thread so, if you want clarification, You can PM me.

 

[273]

Did you not read the whole post? back up the bus.

I skimmed through it, it's a slightly different version of the same novel you write everytime
Not that I totally disagree with your basic premise, it's how you apply it in your made up scenarios with faulty assertions not based on reality and never try to make your assumption to match reality no matter how many times your called out. eg. You act like an engine that makes good 5000-6500 rpm power can't also make strong 3000-5000 rpm power which is obviously false.

Which 318 engine will generally make more hp @ 4500 rpms A or B ?

A, one that makes peak hp @ 4500 rpm or
B, one that makes peak torque @ 4500 rpm ?

 

[HP2]

4.88’s are possible then!

Sure is, but you have to remember that gas in Sweden costs a lot. Like 8.50 a gallon...

Yes and no. The camshaft has RPM limitations. I chose the cam I did based on its rpm band and power potential for the task at hand. A smaller on by 4*’s could work. “Could!” IDK for sure.

While a better flowing cylinder head will allow more HP, sometimes you just need to bend a perfect set up to the available parts you have. The torque down low remains ether un-effected or lightly improved. This is airflow dependent among other things.

As the RPM climbs, there is a noticeable gain in upper RPM (HP) power. What is also nice with a better flowing head is it will extend the RPM range of the cam.

In example, I’m using a Hyd roller by Comp @ 224 intake with .534 lift, .534 / 1.5 X 1.6 =0.5738 (.574 rounded up) with trickflow heads.

(Check the various heads flow charts and see how well the heads flow against each other and where the airflow starts to level off. Notice the airflow differences between heads at the down below cams max lift.

The 1.6 rockers have an effect of adding a little bit of duration and add intensity to the valve as if the lobe was more aggressive. All of this has a positive effect on the incoming A/F charge.

I first used OOTB Edelbrock heads, (good performance) then went to the Maxx CNC Ported chink heads (better performance) then to the TF heads, a little bit better in performance. The difference between heads IS a noticeable difference by way of the eldest of the pants that can’t be missed. It’s not HUGE, but it’s noticeable.

Once you have the best head on top, then your limitation to more HP is obviously elsewhere. Carb, intake, exhaust and piping/mufflers, AND, of course, CID.

Where do we stop?
What are we able to work with or not?

Coming to heads I have what I have. Same thing with my short block, it's a tiny 322-ish V8. On the other hand it's almost the legendary 340! I like that some of you understand that lol. I will do my best making the runners flow as Mr. Vizard has learned me, and I will try to raise CR without going overboard. I wish I had a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 (as I have on my 440) but all I have is 273 rockers. The cost of a new cam, lifters, head gaskets and some more plus shipping AND import fees is already hurting. But let's this be fun, and it will if we can target the cam specs as close as possible.

Cam, carb, intake are the easiest big return parts on the power output unless stroking the engine which is not the case in this instance. So just maximize the air in and out with a camshaft performing in the rpm area your driving and add as much compression as possible, which is pump gas here. So, 11-1 static is about it. I’m at (IIRC) 11.3-1 now.



Very good intake. Est torque maker you have with what you’re working on. Home port it has deep as possible to line up with the heads. (Really the same for all intakes IMO.)

I e round these to be really good single plane intakes and should be used accordingly with camshafts. I would not really use these with what your working on.


I’d like you to be a good bit more specific on the exact TQ carb you have. If it were I that was building this, and the ET slip is t of the great concern, just street joy, I’d fully port the Weiand Stealth out from top to bottom and use the TQ on a 1/2 spacer (if you could find one. Transdapt (Manciniracing maybe) sell a 1 inch TQ open spacer. It’ll need a little work with a grinder to match the intake and the carb just right.

Our now passed member Pittsburghracer ported a M1 single and the TQ spacer for me specifically to use a TQ.


I’d try it. Any carb has to be tailored to work with what it’s going on.

I will probably try both carbs. My heart goes for the TQ, I love the sound when the secondaries open!
I'm leaning towards dual plane since I will Porting the Stealth is an idea I've had. I'm sure it's worth it and grinding is fun lol!

OH! By the way, you can get a Cometic gasket to custom specs pretty darn thin. I have one by them at .028. Mr. Gasket also has .028 gaskets. This should help your compression problem a little bit and take away from such a heavy milling.

The closer to ideal is the goal but you may end up short on the endeavor. Even more so that you can get away with an 11-1 ratio.

I just think such a heavy milling is t really truly in the heads capability. Even if it is capable, is it really do-able and wise?
I ask this to be thought about because you’ll have to mill the intake to fit and that’s just NOT the head mating area but also the front and rear when they sit in the China wall. There is not a lot of meat there to mill.

It will have to be a compromise. Thinner gaskets and then some milling I guess. I shaved 039 off J heads for a 360 I had in my 70 cuda. Shaved the intake side and grind a little for the China walls and that was it. The job was well worth it, it really woke that smog truck engine up LOL. I'll probably not reach 11:1 with the Eddies but a lot better than 9:1

 

[HP2]

Friend;
Sorry if I offended you,
I gave advice that at least two guys can't get past. Two very smart guys. So, I must be wrong.
But since I disagree and stand by what I said, I'm not taking it down.
You asked for advice, and I gave it.
I'm not coming back to this thread so, if you want clarification, You can PM me.

Wait, you just replied to my original post. I couldn't be offended before you have said something?
By the way, it would take an enormous amount of pure BS to make me offended. If even then. I'm happy for all replies, I want all the input I can get. Then I sort out what I believe is good information.

 

[273]

Wait, you just replied to my original post. I couldn't be offended before you have said something?
By the way, it would take an enormous amount of pure BS to make me offended. If even then. I'm happy for all replies, I want all the input I can get. Then I sort out what I believe is good information.

He sensitive about being call out, he feel picked on when you point out the flaws of his assertions and how he never reflects on new information and keeps pumping out the same old made up scenarios with obvious flaws to try to convince people from building a 318.

 

[rumblefish360]

Sure is, but you have to remember that gas in Sweden costs a lot. Like 8.50 a gallon...

Sorry, I should have put in a laughing emoji. Though it would be good at the track.

Coming to heads I have what I have. Same thing with my short block, it's a tiny 322-ish V8. On the other hand it's almost the legendary 340! I like that some of you understand that lol. I will do my best making the runners flow as Mr. Vizard has learned me, and I will try to raise CR without going overboard. I wish I had a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 (as I have on my 440) but all I have is 273 rockers. The cost of a new cam, lifters, head gaskets and some more plus shipping AND import fees is already hurting. But let's this be fun, and it will if we can target the cam specs as close as possible.

I know you’re using the Edelbrock heads because that’s what you have. In AJ’s post, he ignored their use and seemingly ownership. The head will work great and since your following DV’s porting ways, they will be excellent.

The 273 rockers are just fine.

Milling for a reasonable ratio is the only thing you can do. Take a little at a time and test fit the intake so you don’t go to far and have to readjust with crazy thick head gaskets.

I will probably try both carbs. My heart goes for the TQ, I love the sound when the secondaries open!

Love the sound and performance!

I'm leaning towards dual plane since I will Porting the Stealth is an idea I've had. I'm sure it's worth it and grinding is fun lol!

The dual plane is the way to go.

It will have to be a compromise. Thinner gaskets and then some milling I guess. I shaved 039 off J heads for a 360 I had in my 70 cuda. Shaved the intake side and grind a little for the China walls and that was it. The job was well worth it, it really woke that smog truck engine up LOL. I'll probably not reach 11:1 with the Eddies but a lot better than 9:1

 

[rumblefish360]

And there you have it folks, Rumble spent all afternoon taking my post apart........ again
I guess business is slow. .........

Oh man you are funny.

 

[Bewy]

Yeah run the TQ. The small primaries will woork ok with the 318. In 1967, Pontiac used a Quadrajet on a 230 in six cyl engine.

 

[Illahe]

I want a cam for my 318 and need some advice.
I want my Duster to be an easy mannered street toy for day trips and once a while to the strip. My goal is to run a high 7 on 1/8 mile with a car that works good as a daily driver.

Swedish krona is way down and I’m on a budget so I have to build on what I already have as long as possible.

Car is a 71 Duster, body all stock except for fiberglass hood and bumpers. Full interior. Don’t know actual weight.

Engine is a 318 fresh short block rebuild I got from a friend just before he passed away. He had it as a reserve for his 340 he raced.
KB 167 pistons, .030 over
Manley H-beam rods
Balanced 340 crank
Zero decked block
An expensive adjustable timing gear (I forgot the brand)
SFI approved balancer
Milodon low profile 7qt oil pan
Edelbrock 60779 heads. Will do some blending and mild porting.
273” rockers
Have both dual- and single plane intakes to choose from (need to check exactly what I have), and a bunch of Holley and Edelbrock carbs. Well, I also have a very nice TQ "Muscle Car" gem.
Old long tube headers (1 5/8”) and full 2.5” exhaust with free flowing mufflers.
MSD 6AL and original old Mopar distributor (recurved but will of course need to be redone again)
No power brakes.
I have a small converter, have to check and see exactly what it is but I will remember it stalls at around 2,500-3,000.
727 auto.
3,91 SG. Have a 4.88 3:rd member with spool but I don’t think I wanna go that route since it will be a driver. And it’s unnecessarily fun on a rainy day lol.
28” high street slicks

I plan to clean up the runners and polish and do a little un-shrouding to the the combustion chambers.
I have access to machinery to shave them off a little if necessary to tailor compression ratio.

I will be very careful when doing rocker geometry and set them to “1/2” by the B3 Engines method.
Roller rockers is on my wish list, but it will have to wait.

We can get 93 octane from pump here.

Long post so I hope I got it all covered!

Here are my questions:

1. First maybe a stupid one: Would a little chamfering in the cylinders where the flow from the intake valve comes, where the intake valve is closest to the cylinder wall, in do any good?
2. What cam do you suggest? Can’t afford a roller. Afraid of today's flat tappet hydraulic cams and lifters. Have had my share... Not afraid of (and used to) mechanical cams. Like the clatter. Hopefully better quality than today's hydraulics too.
3. We have pretty good gas here in Sweden as said earlier. I’d say that 190psi cylinder pressure is safe with alu heads with our gas. What CR should I aim for with your choice of cam?
4. What's an economical (but still good) choice of pushrods?

Thanks in advance!

Call Schneider cams in San Diego and talk to Jerry or Keven. They both are well-versed in Mopar solids and have done me well. Or you can call racer Brown cams but Jim will take a little bit longer to get your camshaft from. Jim have profiles that have a broad radius nose that are very effective.

 

[RustyRatRod]

And there you have it folks, Rumble spent all afternoon taking my post apart........ again
I guess business is slow. .........

Well, like they say. An empty wagon rattles loudest. You make sure everybody around here hears you rattle.

 

[rumblefish360]

Call Schneider cams in San Diego and talk to Jerry or Keven. They both are well-versed in Mopar solids and have done me well. Or you can call racer Brown cams but Jim will take a little bit longer to get your camshaft from. Jim have profiles that have a broad radius nose that are very effective.

100%! ^^^^^

Well, like they say. An empty wagon rattles loudest. You make sure everybody around here hears you rattle.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I see some are claiming you can’t have a “streetable” 12 second 318.

I say rise above their ignorance. You should be able to do high 11’s falling off a log with a 318 and my dead grandmother could drive it.

WTF is it that make smart people say ignorant ****?

Chrysler spent a bit of money laying out what it takes to go 12’s with a 318, and that’s on production heads.

Today it’s far easier to do it because the cans are far better. Converters are far better.

If you can’t build a streetable 11 second 318 you shouldn’t be giving advice on here.

You should be on a Prius forum where you belong.

My small rant is not about the OP. It’s the guys who think when you say 318 you are relegated to a 16 second engine.

It’s ridiculous really.

 

[fishmens67]

Pontiac used a Quadrajet on a 230 in six cyl engine.

Pontiac also used it on the high compression trophy 4 in the early 60's, half a V8.
My cousin had one in a 63 Tempest, was a cool engine and had some balls for a 4 popper.

 

[1MeanA]

I see some are claiming you can’t have a “streetable” 12 second 318.

I say rise above their ignorance. You should be able to do high 11’s falling off a log with a 318 and my dead grandmother could drive it.

WTF is it that make smart people say ignorant ****?

Chrysler spent a bit of money laying out what it takes to go 12’s with a 318, and that’s on production heads.

Today it’s far easier to do it because the cans are far better. Converters are far better.

If you can’t build a streetable 11 second 318 you shouldn’t be giving advice on here…

Curious it’s killed the cat….whats your recipe for a 12 second 3500 lb street able car with a 318?

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Curious it’s killed the cat….whats your recipe for a 12 second 3500 lb street able car with a 318?

Let’s see.

Strip Dominator.
750 carb
1.750 headers
Small solid lifter cam
3.73 gears
3500 converter
360 heads with a nice valve job, no porting.

It’s not hard. I did it in high school and that was a LONG time ago.

 

[fishmens67]

80's generic build. lol

 

[RustyRatRod]

WTF is it that make smart people say ignorant ****?

This is real easy. Because they're not really smart. They're interested in hearing their own empty wagon rattle and making sure everyone else hears it, too.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

80's generic build. lol

EXACTLY. It’s not hard and it’s been done thousands of times.

It’s like people forgot how it used to be.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Let’s see.

Strip Dominator.
750 carb
1.750 headers
Small solid lifter cam
3.73 gears
3500 converter
360 heads with a nice valve job, no porting.

It’s not hard. I did it in high school and that was a LONG time ago.

Yeah, with even moderate drivin skills, that'd probably do it.