Ok so lets really talk K-members here Folks

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Well I've read every post here and something that has come up but not quite hit is this: Generally people seem to like the RMS front end setup, but the cost is what people seem to stop at buying it. Now each and kit cost about 4K (w/o brakes and shipping), a lot of money to throw down at once.
So how about a group buy! What I'm getting at is we as a group of (I dont know minimum of ten people with confirmed money towards it) get together and talk to Bill about it. So about (I'm just spitting numbers here for example) that as a group of ten will buy ten frontend kits (S/H or S/S you pick the one you need) right now if RMS will sell them for 3K each. Hows that sound to everybody?
 
This has been an interesting thread. :angry7: Going back to the original question, it appears that the A-body Mopar front end market is being exploited by manufacturers. Until these things quit flying off the shelves at current prices, don't look for much relief price-wise.

From the looks of things, going to a coil over set up gains easier ability to adjust spring rates, elimination of the torsion bars, and the ability to use more widely supported Ford steering racks. The down sides are a gain in unsprung weight (not good) and the movement of weight from low in the chassis to higher up due to the need to re-inforce the shock mounts to handle vehicle weight (not good).

Elimination of torsion bars seems to be a mixed bag. On the plus side you get rid of the under chassis clutter for potentially more efficient headers. You also get a better selection of spring rates with coils than with T-bars.
However, most of the coil over spring setups I have seen use constant rate springs. The big advantage of keeping the torsion bars is the reduction of unsprung weight. My experience with torsion bars is that the spring rate increases with deflection up to the point that the material fails. IMO, this is a great advantage for a vehicle that is primarily street driven. Also changing ride height on Mopar TB set ups is much easier than with coil overs.

My wish list for a custom A-body K-member would be one that reduced weight, used torsion bars, would allow spindles to be reversed making it a front steer car, and accomodate custom upper and lower control arms that would increase caster, lower roll center, and allow for an adjustable rate anti-roll bar. R&P steering would be nice, but not essential. For street use, IMO, this is overkill. But if I were to go AutoX or vintage racing, I'd look hard at something like this and with $5K in the budget, buy it. :stop:
 
johnparts said:
That's actually funny because my friend just passed his pe engineering test and is able to sign and insure blueprints and is a mechanical engineer. He will be going over every inch of the prototype when we get our hands on it and can even do similulated f/e analysis.
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Great. Just explain and demostrate to customers what you have done to unsure they have a good product.

Maybe you guys have allready done it? Just show you've covered the bases on your R&D. That's all I ask.


When Bill Reily wanted to go from upper control arms and into making full K-members, first he made sure he had the R&D tools to help and back up his designs. Even if he knew his designs worked and were proven, he wanted to be able to show to his customers he had sound designs.

He was asking opinions on suspension modeling programs we used for Formula SAE. This was back in 1997 or so when there weren't many programs out there. Now days, he's got more advanced stuff, that's actually cheaper. And accumulated other resources too.
 
1970Duster said:
Well I've read every post here and something that has come up but not quite hit is this: Generally people seem to like the RMS front end setup, but the cost is what people seem to stop at buying it. Now each and kit cost about 4K (w/o brakes and shipping), a lot of money to throw down at once.
So how about a group buy! What I'm getting at is we as a group of (I dont know minimum of ten people with confirmed money towards it) get together and talk to Bill about it. So about (I'm just spitting numbers here for example) that as a group of ten will buy ten frontend kits (S/H or S/S you pick the one you need) right now if RMS will sell them for 3K each. Hows that sound to everybody?
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Think that's a great idea, why don't you talk with him about it and see if he would sell them for less as a group buy. Don't mention a price just see what he would say and about how much he would be willing to sell them for. I bet it will still be expensive.
 
I figured out a way to solve this problem. This is for 3g hemi swaps, alterkation, RMD, all the other things we "need" for our car. I mean I really figured out an easier way.

Buy a new challenger and put dart body panels on it, problem solved. That would be easier wouldnt it? and possibly even the same price. Don't really do that, its stupid.

I still dont understand why the desire. There are maybe 2 guys on here that road race these things and they use torsion bars and leaf springs, once again, wtf?

Listen, if you don't put a tubular k frame in your car it will suck and you will hate it.
 
fcm42000 said:
Listen, if you don't put a tubular k frame in your car it will suck and you will hate it.
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The stock setup with power steering wont clear the 3g hemi exhaust, I personally dont want manual steering for parking lot maneuvers.
 
That is a valid issue, why put a modern engine in your car if you can't have power steering. That I get.

So the problem for most is really a power steering issue? If so, this is what really needs to be addressed right?

I am not looking at my car right now so if this is not doable, sorry, but..
what if a rack and pinion was placed somewhere around the area where the drag link is, anchor it to two convenient points, where the gearbox used to be and where the idler arm bolts to. Obviously some custom brackets would have to be made but not rocket science. Now if the rack and pinion is in the same area that the drag link was would any geometry change? As for the steering input, you would have to reverse the direction. I have seen small gearboxes that would do the trick, mount that in the area the old gear box was. The input for the Rack and pinion would face the front of the car.

That seems do able to me.
 
They have a kit that puts a rack in the rear but from what I've read it doesn't work very well of course judging by this thread those naysayers could just be talking like they have in this thread
 
johnparts said:
They have a kit that puts a rack in the rear but from what I've read it doesn't work very well of course judging by this thread those naysayers could just be talking like they have in this thread
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this entire thread is about crying that mopar things are being over priced. you see what those go for? $1000 to $1300 and i don't even see one listed for an A-Body. http://unisteer.com/search_by_product/bolt_in_rack_pinions/mopar.html


i haven't tried one but read a few threads at moparts when that first came out that it didn't fit so great and the car cars steered like crap, they also said the geometry is all out of wack.
 
blown71duster said:
The stock setup with power steering wont clear the 3g hemi exhaust, I personally dont want manual steering for parking lot maneuvers.
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Revhendo said:
What would it cost to build custom headers?
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USCG CHARGER said:
$800-1300
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$800-$1300 for a custom set of headers versus $4k for a replacment front end.....hmmmmmm......sounds like someone might just be trying to justify buying an aftermarket front end. A few months back I spoke with a shop about custom headers for my car. He told me he has squeezed 2.5" primaries in an a-body with a Hemi and the factory front end. Asked him if it would be easier if the car had an aftermarket front end. He said of course it would be, but how often are you going to take the headers out? And his headers are built with removeable collectors. So you attach the primaries to the motor loosely than attach the collector. To me, if the only reaon for a front end swap is header clearance, makes alot more sense to go the custom header route. Then they will be built for your car, possibly even with merged collectors. Spoke with http://www.perfweldheaders.com/index.html who is a member here and he went as far as telling me that if I knew what size tubing my exhaust was going to be made out of he could build the headers to work with that size tubing, so the motor will make as much power corked up as uncorked. If anybody wishes to argue over the statement, please don't do so with me, contact Mark directly......just repeating what I was told...all this being said, if funds permit both a custom made set of headers and an aftermarket front end, that is the route I will be going. Don't know if I really want to be in my Dart that will have the capabilities of (hopefully) running low 9's with the factory front end.......
 
demon34071 said:
No I hadn't, but I just emailed him to see if he would. Never hurts to ask.
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Just heard from Bill at RMS and yes you can buy the kit piece by piece, he says its actually a pretty common question. FYI the frame alone is $1399..... if you can't pop on the whole kit at once email Bill and he will send you the breakdown on the parts.

Its still not $400 - $600 bucks like this original post is all about, but when one is willing to spend big $$$ on custom headers, big $$$ on custom wheels, big $$$ on expensive tires, big $$$ on custom built motors, big $$$ on aftermarket seat covers, big $$$ on sheet metal panels, big $$$ on etc, etc, etc, and then 4-10 years of your life working on it, really is $4K over time for a custom aftermarket front end is not much at all?? at least I think not.
 
demon34071 said:
Just heard from Bill at RMS and yes you can buy the kit piece by piece, he says its actually a pretty common question. FYI the frame alone is $1399..... if you can't pop on the whole kit at once email Bill and he will send you the breakdown on the parts.

Its still not $400 - $600 bucks like this original post is all about, but when one is willing to spend big $$$ on custom headers, big $$$ on custom wheels, big $$$ on expensive tires, big $$$ on custom built motors, big $$$ on aftermarket seat covers, big $$$ on sheet metal panels, big $$$ on etc, etc, etc, and then 4-10 years of your life working on it, really is $4K over time for a custom aftermarket front end is not much at all?? at least I think not.
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I think you may actually be lurking on the big picture. All said this is just one aspect of a complete build on a car. Ultimately you have to decide what the purpose of your car is going to be and what your goals are. Be it a dual purpose, a drag car, a canyon carver or a lawn gnome. It's the expression of our hobby that we build our cars the way we want to. Not everyone will agree and that's just fine as long as everybody learns something and has fun doing it.
 
personally I think $400 to $500 spent on a much stronger and lighter k is a win win and flex,supension flex and steering box deflection will all be improved. Slightly more room for headers and oil pans would be a bonus,as well as an optional rack mount..

As for RMS,well I wouldnt admit 5k is too much after spending it either,lol.There's also guys who dont want the status quo disturbed..if more guys felt like johnsparts and myself amonst many, the mopar parts wouldnt be ridiculous prices.

It's not a case of wanting what we cant have. It's a case of the industry wanting too much from us!

High mopar price gouging is how Ford and Chevy guys get thier cars built!
 
needsaresto said:
personally I think $400 to $500 spent on a much stronger and lighter k is a win win and flex,supension flex and steering box deflection will all be improved. Slightly more room for headers and oil pans would be a bonus,as well as an optional rack mount..

As for RMS,well I wouldnt admit 5k is too much after spending it either,lol.There's also guys who dont want the status quo disturbed..if more guys felt like johnsparts and myself amonst many, the mopar parts wouldnt be ridiculous prices.

It's not a case of wanting what we cant have. It's a case of the industry wanting too much from us!

High mopar price gouging is how Ford and Chevy guys get thier cars built!
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I agree with you and johnsparts that yes a stronger K-frame at $400-$500 would be great, but lets face it if it could be done and a profit made it would have been done already. Can it done if you do it yourself (ie not paying yourself for labor) YES many have done it.

But to call it simple mopar price gouging that is a bit far fetched....if a profit could be made at a lower price ALL business owners would do it because you make more by simple volume. Obviously the volume is not there to make them cheaper at the $400-$500 range and make enough profit to justify the effort.... but kuddos to the soon to be rich bastard who finally does it!
 
Just throwing this out there, Anybody using the RMS frontend kit and using Leaf springs in the rear? Hows the car ride?
 
needsaresto said:
personally I think $400 to $500 spent on a much stronger and lighter k is a win win and flex,supension flex and steering box deflection will all be improved. Slightly more room for headers and oil pans would be a bonus,as well as an optional rack mount...
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That's the deal. People assume it's stronger because it's tubular or fabricated. Many times yes. But not always. Just make sure the K-frame you build or buy is as strong or stronger than stock.

Many of the drag oriented fabricated K's are not stronger in side loads. And that's fine, they are drag car and they will trade off that for reduced weight. They have very little and skinny bridge support in the center that ties the two front frame rail together.
 
.if more guys felt like johnsparts and myself amonst many, the mopar parts wouldnt be ridiculous prices.
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then step up and build or have built what you think are affordable products. talk is cheap. bitching on a web site is worthless. go do the leg work and get it done man.

as far as johnparts project goes, i'm sure he will agree its just all talk till its built and on the street proven. its awesome he has stepped up to get something done and hopefully he can get it done as cheap and as high quality as he says, but in truth it is nothing but talk until its out on the street in customers hands with real world feedback. then ya know what your dealing with good or bad. no disrespect intended.
 
1970Duster said:
Just throwing this out there, Anybody using the RMS frontend kit and using Leaf springs in the rear? Hows the car ride?
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rides great. had my alter-k up front with worn out 6 cyl rear springs and air shocks for a year or two. i also had a 15x4 wheel with a 165r-15 tire up front. i was saving money for my 17" rims and tires. friends couldn't believe how the car would corner. i could keep up with all of them on curvy back roads hitting corners at 60-70mph that i was no way doing with my stock worn suspension. i'm sure new rear springs and a good wheel/tire combo would have really helped.

then i put the rear rms suspension in the car and holy crap. those skinny front tires that i couldn't out drive with the stock worn springs were suddenly scary in the corners because it was so much more stable that you went faster in the corners and out drove those little tires..lol then the 17" wheels and tires came and man its a sweet car to drive. a ton of fun on those curvy back roads. now its the driver that pussies out before the car ever will..lol




look at it. should never have been able to handle...lol


mikes__7-15-06_022.jpg
 
needsaresto said:
personally I think $400 to $500 spent on a much stronger and lighter k is a win win and flex,supension flex and steering box deflection will all be improved. Slightly more room for headers and oil pans would be a bonus,as well as an optional rack mount..

As for RMS,well I wouldnt admit 5k is too much after spending it either,lol.There's also guys who dont want the status quo disturbed..if more guys felt like johnsparts and myself amonst many, the mopar parts wouldnt be ridiculous prices.

It's not a case of wanting what we cant have. It's a case of the industry wanting too much from us!

High mopar price gouging is how Ford and Chevy guys get thier cars built!
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You are too transparent,dude. Please reread the posts from people that have built,and have used manufactured K's.If you only believe that the big guy just wants to put his finger on you,you are wrong.If you buy a cheapo K,get it into your (car) you rip some gears get it sideways and it breaks,then what? Everyone is entitled to their opinion-however unfounded-I have a friend that builds frames,and I have a friend that builds engines for drag cars and circuit cars,I would take their opinion over yours in a heartbeat.And YES,it is a case of wanting your cake and eating it too.
 
And Yes Joe until it hit the street it is all a pipe dream. My main purpose of this thread was to say "Look these same parts for other cars that use factory control arms, springs, steering components are a 1/3rd of what we are paying" Don't you think that is a bit out of line?

Bill says $1399 for just the K-Member that's great but again doesn't that seem high?

I know Many mustang guys that run a tube front K-member on the street and the benefits of header clearance, ease of repairs of things like starters and oil pan gaskets, and the obvious weight savings is just a few of the things they love about having one.

Part for Part all mopar parts are at least double what a chevy or ford guy would pay. Thank god we aren't dealing with restoring bentley's cause then we would all really be bitching about money.

I also believe that a tubular k member with the associated goodies is not going to be for everyone and that there will be people on both sides of the fence and the crowd that wants one will get it the crowd that doesn't want it wont whether it's 100 bucks or 10000 bucks.

One other benefit I want for myself is to be able to run my A/C compressor on my hemi that without moving the motor mounts is not possible.
 
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