possible to make a late model A body handle like its on rails?

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eviper21

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i have a 73 duster...dont know much about suspension except the components (geometry and stuff like that im not to keen on)

But i know the stock set up is like a truck...torsion bars and leaf springs with shocks. Super simple, but with a flimsy old k frame and truck suspension...im pretty sure its not gonna wanna do much but go straight. Im not an auto x racer or anything, but one of my favorite things to do is drive the mountain roads here in socal.

Is there any "bolt in" options to upgrade the suspension? i know there are a bunch for the front...new k frame etc. (not sure of any good brand) but in the rear is there a way to swap it over to a coil spring set up?

anyways, like i said im not to familiar with custom suspension, so pardon my ignorance, please lemme know if you guys have any ideas though :happy1:

thanks
 
there is plenty of options if you have deep pockets, the front K frame is repoped by quite a few companies and includes rack and pinion steering, seems to me it runs around $5000, only way to put coils in the rear is a custom 4 link and custom frame rails

these are not chebbies, aftermarket parts are made but they are very expensive
 
yea i know a 4 link is an option...lots of custom work tho. But i always thought it was meant more for drag racing applications?
 
Check out the Green Brick by Mopar Action.A roadrace Valiant using torsion bar stock style suspension.It has brung home some nice wins.It involves about 10 or 12 issues.Maybe that fits your style more,check it out.
 
i have a 73 duster...dont know much about suspension except the components (geometry and stuff like that im not to keen on)

But i know the stock set up is like a truck...torsion bars and leaf springs with shocks. Super simple, but with a flimsy old k frame and truck suspension...im pretty sure its not gonna wanna do much but go straight. Im not an auto x racer or anything, but one of my favorite things to do is drive the mountain roads here in socal.

Is there any "bolt in" options to upgrade the suspension? i know there are a bunch for the front...new k frame etc. (not sure of any good brand) but in the rear is there a way to swap it over to a coil spring set up?

anyways, like i said im not to familiar with custom suspension, so pardon my ignorance, please lemme know if you guys have any ideas though :happy1:

thanks

-.99" to 1.03 torsion bars for like $200 or less on ebay

-moog offset upper control arm bushing pn 7103 ~$40 The align car to 3-4 degress positve caster, 1/2 neg camber, 1/16 toe in.

-1 1/8" front sway bar from Helwig or Hotchkis ~$ 150 and up

-rear sway bar perferably adjustable from Helwig or Hotchkis ~175 and up

-Bilstein RCD shocks ~$400

-tires that are 225 wide or more. 225/60/15 must have 15x7 with at least 4.25" backspacing (stock rallye/cop rim)

That is an inexpensive START that will make your car feel entirely different.!

The K-member is not that flimsy. Sure you can improve it. But if you don't have the $$ or not pulling everything apart, there are bigger improvements elsewhere first.
 
Have you actually driven one?
These torsion bar/leaf spring cars had a reputation as superior handling cars when they were built. Torsion bars are making a comeback. They are, to an extent, user tunable.
IMO, the setup handles much like a go-cart. easy to help steer with throttle/brakes.
 
Check out the Green Brick by Mopar Action.A roadrace Valiant using torsion bar stock style suspension.It has brung home some nice wins.It involves about 10 or 12 issues.Maybe that fits your style more,check it out.

The "Green Brick" has kicked alot of corvettes, Vipers, & other road race types asses.
This would be a good place to look.
Mopar Action boys are doing it with leaf springs & OEM design front end.
Don't be fooled, these A-bodies will handle.
 
-.99" to 1.03 torsion bars for like $200 or less on ebay

-moog offset upper control arm bushing pn 7103 ~$40 The align car to 3-4 degress positve caster, 1/2 neg camber, 1/16 toe in.

-1 1/8" front sway bar from Helwig or Hotchkis ~$ 150 and up

-rear sway bar perferably adjustable from Helwig or Hotchkis ~175 and up

-Bilstein RCD shocks ~$400

-tires that are 225 wide or more. 225/60/15 must have 15x7 with at least 4.25" backspacing (stock rallye/cop rim)

That is an inexpensive START that will make your car feel entirely different.!

The K-member is not that flimsy. Sure you can improve it. But if you don't have the $$ or not pulling everything apart, there are bigger improvements elsewhere first.

Only 1 thing that I'd add to your recipe and that's sub-frame connectors, stiffens the foundation and makes everything else work together.
 
I have the .990 torsion bars, Hellwig frt and rear bars and sub-frame connectors. Even with BFG crap tires and KYB shocks my '69 B'cuda handles well, relatively flat and predictable in the corners(that's with a BB in frt). I'm no corner carver, but it is fun on some of the back roads around here:D:burnout:
 
There's been several threads around here about road race Mopars. Hell, back when they ran on the tracks they weren't being converted to 4 link.

The big thing that kills cornering is when you radically move the leafs inboard to clear the tires. Even that can be helped some with a rear sway bar.
 
all have very good points. the stock design can and will perform! the only other option for a complete tubular coil over front end that is meant for road race, and can handle the stresses of everyday street driving, would be the Reilly Motorsports AlterKtion, bar none, hands down, the best front end kit available. however, there has been a couple nice setups that people have made themselves that are roaming around on this site somewhere.

leaf springs work well for the rear, but RMS also sells a triangulated 4 link that works very well.
 
i have a 73 duster...dont know much about suspension except the components (geometry and stuff like that im not to keen on)

But i know the stock set up is like a truck...torsion bars and leaf springs with shocks. Super simple, but with a flimsy old k frame and truck suspension...im pretty sure its not gonna wanna do much but go straight. Im not an auto x racer or anything, but one of my favorite things to do is drive the mountain roads here in socal.

Is there any "bolt in" options to upgrade the suspension? i know there are a bunch for the front...new k frame etc. (not sure of any good brand) but in the rear is there a way to swap it over to a coil spring set up?

anyways, like i said im not to familiar with custom suspension, so pardon my ignorance, please lemme know if you guys have any ideas though :happy1:

thanks

Sway bars front and rear. Stiffer torsion bars. Put a Hotchkis swaybar on the front of a 65 Dart, what a difference that made. Helping my son out putting a Hotchkis suspension on the front and rear of a 72 Scamp.
 
-.99" to 1.03 torsion bars for like $200 or less on ebay

-moog offset upper control arm bushing pn 7103 ~$40 The align car to 3-4 degress positve caster, 1/2 neg camber, 1/16 toe in.

-1 1/8" front sway bar from Helwig or Hotchkis ~$ 150 and up

-rear sway bar perferably adjustable from Helwig or Hotchkis ~175 and up

-Bilstein RCD shocks ~$400

-tires that are 225 wide or more. 225/60/15 must have 15x7 with at least 4.25" backspacing (stock rallye/cop rim)

That is an inexpensive START that will make your car feel entirely different.!

The K-member is not that flimsy. Sure you can improve it. But if you don't have the $$ or not pulling everything apart, there are bigger improvements elsewhere first.


Autoxcuda is right on. Do those mods, add subframe connectors, and your Duster will handle very well.

Torsion bar suspension IS NOT truck suspension. Yes, it has been used in quite a few trucks, even large ones. But its not fundamentally a "truck suspension" any more than coil spring suspensions are (they're used on plenty of trucks too). It has quite a few advantages, the biggest being that the ride height can be altered without effecting spring rate or preload. Spring rate is 1:1 with wheel rate, and there's less unsprung weight than coil spring suspensions, where the weight of the spring counts toward unsprung weight.

Torsion bar suspensions just get a bad rap because most folks are used to dealing with coil spring set ups and haven't the foggiest idea how a torsion bar suspension actually works. I would take a well set up torsion bar suspension over a grafted-on aftermarket coilover suspension every time.
 
Autoxcuda is right on. Do those mods, add subframe connectors, and your Duster will handle very well.

Torsion bar suspension IS NOT truck suspension. Yes, it has been used in quite a few trucks, even large ones. But its not fundamentally a "truck suspension" any more than coil spring suspensions are (they're used on plenty of trucks too). It has quite a few advantages, the biggest being that the ride height can be altered without effecting spring rate or preload. Spring rate is 1:1 with wheel rate, and there's less unsprung weight than coil spring suspensions, where the weight of the spring counts toward unsprung weight.

Torsion bar suspensions just get a bad rap because most folks are used to dealing with coil spring set ups and haven't the foggiest idea how a torsion bar suspension actually works. I would take a well set up torsion bar suspension over a grafted-on aftermarket coilover suspension every time.


What about bent t bars :D:D:D:banghead: I agree though a well though out tbar set up can and will handle very well.
 
Only 1 thing that I'd add to your recipe and that's sub-frame connectors, stiffens the foundation and makes everything else work together.

I didn't add the subframe connectors because they are not bolt on and sort of costly to buy and have installed if you don't have a welding setup of your own.

Also, those other mods are more bang for your buck than the sub frame connectors. I ran for years without subframe connectors. Mitch Lelito that was a nationally competitive E-Street Prepard SCCA autocross did not have sub frame connectors. And he runs huge 1.24 T-bars, larger than 1 1/4" front sway bar, like 7/8 rear sway bar, ultra sticky autocross specific race 275 wide tires, etc, etc.

I'm not saying subframe connectors are a bad thing. Or don't give you any improvement.

Just that other things will give you more seat of the pants improvement first if you are on a tight budget like I feel the original poster is on.
 
I think that the last two issues of Mopar Action have covered things that you can do to up the ante when it comes to your car's handling.

The issues (if memory serves) are the one with the Hemi Belvedere II and the wild 70 Cuda with flames on the cover. It goes into detail about a number of issues to tweak handling in your favor if you are a more spirited driver.

Firm Feel upgraded steering box
Offset bushings (with recommended vendors)
Tubular UCAs

I will also echo the "Green Brick" comments that other members have mentioned here. I am sure there are some high dollar car owners that were surprised when they got smoked in the twisties by something that did not drain Ft. Knox.

My opinion the first thing to address is to get a good set of shoes on the car first. Pizza cutters do not carve roads very well. Wide as you can get with a larger rim and a lower profile tire is a start. The start looking at anti-sway bars, and suspension upgrades. I would also recommend collecting parts and then doing everything all at once so that you only have to make one trip to a reputable alignment shop one time and go drive!

It sounds like you do not want to spring for the RMS AlterKtion front and RMS Street Lynx for the rear; it sounds like you are wanting to work with what you have.
 
i have a 73 duster...dont know much about suspension except the components (geometry and stuff like that im not to keen on)

There have been several good books written on the subject of the classic Mopar torsion bar suspension starting with the chassis prep book first published by mother Mopar itself under the Direct Connection moniker, but you might start out by searching the archives here on FABO, this subject has been covered many times and there are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful posters contributing here.

If your knowledge of suspensions in general is lacking, obtaining, reading, and understanding the series of books written by Carrol Smith (Prepare to Win, Tune to Win, Engineer to Win, Drive to Win) is essential. Although written from the perspective of the pure open wheeled race car, his books will go a long way to your understanding of suspension and vehicle dynamics and should be considered an absolute necessity if you don't want to stick your head in the sand and play monkey see, monkey do with this stuff.


But i know the stock set up is like a truck...torsion bars and leaf springs with shocks. Super simple, but with a flimsy old k frame and truck suspension...im pretty sure its not gonna wanna do much but go straight. Im not an auto x racer or anything, but one of my favorite things to do is drive the mountain roads here in socal.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but I'm sure you didn't get your ideas on Mopar chassis design from the E-booger (think Mopar Action Green Brick) or Dick Ross (Firm Feel Inc.)


Is there any "bolt in" options to upgrade the suspension? i know there are a bunch for the front...new k frame etc. (not sure of any good brand) but in the rear is there a way to swap it over to a coil spring set up?

Lots, but do your research and learn the basics first. It's too easy to get caught up in the latest fad and buy things you don't need and don't get the job done. Also, these cars are all around 40+ years old and will need replacing of the torsion bars, springs, and stabilizer bars (or adding stabilizer bars to the cars that didn't come with them). Before you get into their replacement, remember to bring the basics up to snuff by renewing the wear parts (bushings, ball joints, etc.) including the shock absorbers. A remanufactured steering box will go a long way to restoring that new car like feel too, along with offset upper control arm bushes to gain a little caster all these cars need.


anyways, like i said im not to familiar with custom suspension, so pardon my ignorance, please lemme know if you guys have any ideas though :happy1:

Mopar longitudinal torsion bar front/ leaf spring rear suspension was easily the most sophisticated and best handling suspension offered by any of the manufacturers contemporary to it and Mopars usually came with better brakes than their competition too. Even now, properly setup with upgraded brakes and on modern wheels and tires, it can get the best of a lot of the vehicles currently offered and thought to be very good handlers.

Not to slight the other manufacturers, but one of the easiest ways to get started on an education is to spend some thoughtful time on the Firm Feel website. Just don't be surprised if you start lusting after some of the products and services Dick offers.



thanks

This reply wasn't meant to slight anyone, but there are aways young guns with lots of enthusiasm and little knowledge or experience that need to hear these things.
 
Autoxcuda is right on. Do those mods, add subframe connectors, and your Duster will handle very well.

Torsion bar suspension IS NOT truck suspension. Yes, it has been used in quite a few trucks, even large ones. But its not fundamentally a "truck suspension" any more than coil spring suspensions are (they're used on plenty of trucks too). It has quite a few advantages, the biggest being that the ride height can be altered without effecting spring rate or preload. Spring rate is 1:1 with wheel rate, and there's less unsprung weight than coil spring suspensions, where the weight of the spring counts toward unsprung weight.

Torsion bar suspensions just get a bad rap because most folks are used to dealing with coil spring set ups and haven't the foggiest idea how a torsion bar suspension actually works. I would take a well set up torsion bar suspension over a grafted-on aftermarket coilover suspension every time.
How is the torsion bar spring rate 1:1 with wheel rate ? Centerline of tb to wheel cl is approx 14" ? If someone is inclined to delete torsion bars for coils, they might consider air bags. They have some advantages. ateam:cheers:
 
I didn't add the subframe connectors because they are not bolt on and sort of costly to buy and have installed if you don't have a welding setup of your own.

Also, those other mods are more bang for your buck than the sub frame connectors. I ran for years without subframe connectors. Mitch Lelito that was a nationally competitive E-Street Prepard SCCA autocross did not have sub frame connectors. And he runs huge 1.24 T-bars, larger than 1 1/4" front sway bar, like 7/8 rear sway bar, ultra sticky autocross specific race 275 wide tires, etc, etc.

I'm not saying subframe connectors are a bad thing. Or don't give you any improvement.

Just that other things will give you more seat of the pants improvement first if you are on a tight budget like I feel the original poster is on.


You can make your own for very little money. Fab them up then take them to some place and have them welded in.
 
Don't subframe connectors help more for drag racing because they help alleviate twisting stress?
Isn't handling and road racing more about rolling stress?
Some of the best handling cars in the world are unit body construction.
..oh, wait, almost all cars in the world are now unit body construction.
 
Check out the Green Brick by Mopar Action.A roadrace Valiant using torsion bar stock style suspension.It has brung home some nice wins.It involves about 10 or 12 issues.Maybe that fits your style more,check it out.

As I remember the Brick beat out a lot of high dollar iron including Porches, Corvettes and Vipers. It came in #2 overall and would have won if the Vette owner wouldn't have whined so much. Anyway the Green Brick Valliant used stock suspension and it handled pretty well. See if you can get the back issues of Mopar Action.
 
As I remember the Brick beat out a lot of high dollar iron including Porches, Corvettes and Vipers. It came in #2 overall and would have won if the Vette owner wouldn't have whined so much. Anyway the Green Brick Valliant used stock suspension and it handled pretty well. See if you can get the back issues of Mopar Action.
Here's a little Green Brick Vs Audi S4 Action.

[ame="http://www.streetfire.net/video/audi-s4-vs-plymouth-valiant-green-brick_91168.htm"]Object moved[/ame]

And a link to the Green Brick Page at Mopar Action. They say that the One Lap of America coverage was in December 2002 issue.

http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/archive/one-lap-pix.html
 
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