Proform 850 dialing it in closer

Mopar Racers Forum

  1. Cudafever

    Cudafever Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that!!!
    Had to fix my lighter so I can us my LM 2...never thought about the plug it’s self.
    Will check all that out when I get back home.
     
  2. Hysteric

    Hysteric Well-Known Member

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    No but Sounds like an interesting idea.

    You can also just print screen and post what you see that way.
     
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    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      Did a quick search.
      Here's one
      Horsepower from SSI-4.
      Long read, but Dr Mike's contact info is in there if you skim through he pops back in further down.
       
      Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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      • Hysteric

        Hysteric Well-Known Member

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        "But as long as there are no design issues with the hole in the universe, let's not solve that right now."

        That was funny.

        Lots to digest in that thread. I have a spare SSI4-4 sitting in the garage that might come handy one day
         
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        • Cudafever

          Cudafever Well-Known Member

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          I will have to finish that thread when I get a minute.
          The graph shows up just fine in the innovative software. Tried to upload the snippet. Not loadable on this sight.
          I have office ......2007? On my computer. I can convert it with that????
           
        • Mattax

          Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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          I don't think so.
          Do you have MS Paint? That use to come with Windows, at least through Windows 7 its listed in programs under 'accessories'
           
        • Cudafever

          Cudafever Well-Known Member

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          K will see. I have 7
           
        • Mattax

          Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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          Here's where it is on my version.
          I used the Print Sc keyboard button to capture and then pasted in Paint.
          From there Copy to FABO.
          Actually not sure why you can't paste direct from the screen capture into the FABO text box.
          Alternatively, if the Copy and paste don't work; Save the image in paint and then use the Upload Photos button in the FABO reply screen.
          upload_2020-7-5_8-24-38.png
           
        • Cudafever

          Cudafever Well-Known Member

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          I used the Print Sc keyboard button to capture and then pasted in Paint.
          From there Copy to FABO.
          Actually not sure why you can't paste direct from the screen capture into the FABO text box.


          Starting to work on this. Will have question later.
          and thanks
           
          Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
        • Cudafever

          Cudafever Well-Known Member

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          And there you have it Woo Hooow :D

          OK so this was my first run W/Out my secondary hooked up......O2 didn't give up here and there is a lot of idle time before and after this screen shot.

          So at the 30 sec mark? Is when i launched the car. feather the throttle all the way threw first and then full throttle (2 barrels )threw 2nt and third. Can't get to top rpm because i have to keep it floored past the finish line and i have all most put it in the sand trap doing that.
          got it stopped and, and turned around, blasted it from a roll back down the track towards the starting line. was at full throttle buy the 1:10 mark
          upload_2020-7-5_11-18-29.png

          2nt run back to 4 barrels carb feathered all thru first gear(throttle sensor is going to be so nice!) (had to take notes after each run)
          Full throttle thru 2 and 3 gear. Ran it to 6000 rpm in 2nt gear so not much pull in 3d The spike at 45 sec was Me bopping the throttle, as I down shifted into 2nt. BUT as you can see 02 when to sleep while i was down shifting.
          upload_2020-7-5_11-34-11.png


          So came back down to the starting line, shut off to re set, started up and launched it harder and got to squarely and shifted it early again.
          the 2nt small bump in black, about the 15 sec mark. full throttle thru 2 and 3. Note the o2s frozed at 23 and then started working for a moment and then when to sleep again.
          upload_2020-7-5_11-49-11.png

          Hot lapping it now. Back to the starting line, re set and launch. falls asleep before i can git it to bite in first gear.
          Not knowing its asleep, i short shift into 2nt and push it way past the finish like trying to get it to read a full pull in high gear. looked at the gauge, Grrr turned the record off.
          upload_2020-7-5_11-58-31.png


          Sooooo i let it cool down for a while, make sure all my connections are pushed all the way in. Decide that i can't get any kind of traction in first so lets do a 2nt gear launch............02 made it just past 2-3 shift and them snooze villi again.
          upload_2020-7-5_12-6-19.png

          Exited that i could post then up i haven't real look at them, much.
          Tell me what you see................
          Thanks @Mattax Had my wife teach me the Print screen. Wow So simple :D
           
          Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
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          • Mattax

            Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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            Yea!!!!!
            Its interesting that in most cases the AFR drifted from leaner to richer then seemed to go steady. But the second gear to 6000 rpm on all 4 barrels (2nd screen capture) shows flat. H'mm. ???

            Because this is a race car I'm not sure if what I'm going to write is a good idea. On a chassis dyno the procedure is to get the wheels and roller rolling. Then upshift to the gear it will be run, then put the throttle down. With an automatic this has to be done so as not to have it down shift. With a manual I think the only concern is to avoid tire slip/chripping on a shift. So I'm thinking if for testing purposes (no one else there) maybe change the procedure to emphasize either 2nd or 3rd without running out of room. ???? See what the other guys with more track and dyno time have say.

            I've seen AFR lean in first and IMO that's something to do with the engine isn't seeing as much load. That's not really a good explanation as just an obesrvation of the relationship.

            Software stuff

            To expand the scales in logworks, use your mouse to click on the magnifier circled in blue.
            Then move your mouse to horizontal scale and click on it.
            Vertical scales can be expanded the same way.
            Use the hand symbol to slide the scales up or down.
            upload_2020-7-5_15-9-10.png

            The little yellow symbol can be selected to put notes onto the log.
            There is also a way to add information to the sessions. I think its by clicking on the sessions -> edit. Or maybe its by selecting the tab. To see the info, put the mouse over the tab.

            As far as the noisy afr, I'm assuming that's reversion because there's no exhaust pipe after the collector.
             
          • Cudafever

            Cudafever Well-Known Member

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            This it the first 4 barrel one expanded
            upload_2020-7-5_14-35-6.png

            This is the launch in 2nt gear one expanded.
            Looks like i could take some fuel out of the hit......?........Squirter?

            upload_2020-7-5_14-39-27.png

            This it the 2 barrel launch expanded
            Seems a lot more erratic. Probably fuel distribution in a duel plain intake???????
            upload_2020-7-5_14-47-3.png

            Rolling 2nt gear launch expanded.
            Looks like i still have room to lean it out some more.70 front 80 rear with all of these bar graphs.
            upload_2020-7-5_14-56-26.png
            watching the time line with the o2 sensor and the launch. it goes lean EDIT: see post 64
            That's what i get out of it.
            What do you think.
             
            Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
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            • Mattax

              Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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              That might be just the difference in AFR and time scales scales. Logworks might have automatically scaled the AFR different. huh-gif.gif
              I see 10, 11 and 12 AFR on the axis of the 2 bbl launch but only 10 and 12 on the 4 bbl.

              If you want to attempt a direct comparison, there is a bar like symbol at the top. More like a thin "I" Use that to select and copy a section of the 2 bbl log. Then overlay that onto the 4 bbl log. Move it around to so the start rpms of the 2nd gear shift line up (or whatever you want). cool-gif.gif The software has a lot of powerful features to discover. :)

              It does look that way. I don't know what your engine likes.
              You can use this tool to show the AFRs and RPM at any point. It makes it easier to compare stuff.
              upload_2020-7-5_18-56-46.png

              What bother me more is the sloping.
              upload_2020-7-5_18-39-30.png

              upload_2020-7-5_18-42-2.png

              Could be too much air in the main wells.
              And also maybe too much main airbleed.
              I'd look at the emulsion-holes and HSABs to see what is there. Then decide.
               
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              • Cudafever

                Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                So looking at the time lines, this is what i got for the o2s during the 2nt gear "launch".
                at launch it when from 13.08 up to 15.20 for .24 sec/ 1/4 sec
                then when richer from 15.20 down to 10.20 for .25 sec/1/4 sec
                then went leaner from 10.20 up to 12.88 for .16 sec/ 1/8 sec
                Then when Richer from 12.88 down to 9.91 for .17 sec/ 1/8 sec
                Then went back up from 9.91 up to a 11.26 for .57 sec./ 1/2 sec
                then it averaged 10.89 to 11.59 o2s thru 2n't and 3d gear.

                What does all of this mean i don't know.........after the eng established the squirter were keeping it rich for a 1/2 sec......!?.??
                all of this = the first 1.25 secs of probably a 2.25 60 foot time.... just a guess.
                 
                Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
              • Cudafever

                Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                I though sloping richer at the top of the rpm was a good idea.
                two much slope ?
                I think the main or high speed bleeds are a.027
                 
              • Mattax

                Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                My understanding is that once the engine is at the maximum load, the best fuel mixture is pretty stable or flat.
                I'm not saying that's always true - just my understanding.

                Maybe with low gear ratios in drag racing sometimes that max load doesn't occur until near the top rpms/ end the strip?
                 
              • Cudafever

                Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                This was only a test but has given me a lot of valuable data to sift thru.
                It will be a while but i think i will (in test mod)be doing a 2nt gear launch and take it all the way up to 6500 rpm and see what it shows.
                Several of these and i should be able to lay them over each other and learn some more.
                really don't want to change anything until i get more consistent data(I need to be more consistent).

                Need to fix o2 problem first, as well as install my new TPS, before i go testing again.

                Off to see if i can figure out how to overlay some run for fun:thumbsup:
                 
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                • Hysteric

                  Hysteric Well-Known Member

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                  There is something seriously amiss here. There is no way you should be getting those large swings in AFRS especially at idle. Do you have another known good carb to put on to see if it fixes this anomaly?

                  If it were mine I would baseline the carb with what a similar holley would have both in the jetting and air bleeds and stock holley emulsion. Can you provide a log with just idle and transfer fueling before the primaries begin to flow?
                   
                • Cudafever

                  Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                  :thumbsup: it has open header and the o2 is 11 inch before the end of the exhaust.
                  Only thing readable or accurate is at full throttle.

                  If you go back to post 7 where i was using a gopro to read the meter you will see even higher numbers at idle.
                  only had 2 inch between the sensor and the end of the exhaust.

                  I have thought about adding a muffler and a down pipe.........but that cost money. there for idle and transfer slot reading......well it's not capable of that right now.
                   
                • Hysteric

                  Hysteric Well-Known Member

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                  Ahh ok missed that. Would still like to see what it looks like with a different carb.
                   
                • mderoy340

                  mderoy340 Well-Known Member

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                  Third gear at the big end 1/4 mile slightly leaner for me. 1/8 mile you are not in third very long. With the big swing in AFR; plug reading and mph time. My airgap didn't flow even until I deep ported.
                   
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                  • PRH

                    PRH Well-Known Member

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                    Frankly, the main numbers I’d be tuning for are the ones on the time slip.
                     
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                    • Cudafever

                      Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                      After a sec look at this post.
                      upload_2020-7-5_14-39-27-png.png


                      I think the squirt size is close. Rich end up the mixture just past what the booster supply....Maybe see what position the squirter cam is in and move that for less duration.......
                      This is farther down the road test, but will be a simple test.
                       
                    • mderoy340

                      mderoy340 Well-Known Member

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                      I always get the main jetting mph correct first and then tune pump cam and nozzles to best 60' times. A good starting point for accelerator pump nozzles for you would be 33 front and rear, orange #2 front/orange #1 rear. If you are launching at 2K rpm for example, use #2 hole up front so you save more pump shot for WOT at launch. With so many different combos it is a long process to get the best setup and I rely on 60' instead butt dyno.
                       
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                      • Cudafever

                        Cudafever Well-Known Member

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                        LOL yeah the o'll butt o dyno has sent me in the wrong direction to many time to count.
                         
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