So this new minumum wage thing?

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Minimum wage jobs are not career jobs. As noted several times in this thread - we've all worked some form of minimum wage job and made sacrifices to change careers. Or worked them in highschool and knew to go in a different direction or that hard work could differentiate you from your peers for raises, promotion or other opportunities

Unions are obsolete and do not protect jobs or employees - if you don't like your job or pay rate do something about it (education, training, changing jobs) Not tied to the company store or bitching over beer about "the man"

This was discussed and sang about in the turn of the 20th century, automation taking jobs. The fast food franchises have now invested and will be rolling out self-serve kiosks (McDonald's To Roll Out Self-Order Kiosks and Table Service in the U.S. | Fortune.com) to reduce head count. I bet your fast food experience will actually be better
 
1968FormulaS340 said:
The average age of a collision repair tech in the US is 50 years old. Shops are begging for techs here in Oregon.

Careers are out there that pay well above minimum wage but I'm not sure this generation wants to work hard and think for a paycheck.
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We have the same problem here in our shop. There are not enough techs. People just do not want to work for their money, do not want to spend the time to learn or even show up for work. A 30 year old prepper complained he was not making enough money. He is always late and calls in sick at least 3 times a month and for days at a time. Owner said no problem, you will get another raise and you get to name the figure. All you have to do is be on time and do not call in sick for one month. We'll then sit down and talk money. He lasted for 3 days. By the way... no one in our shop of 54 makes minimum wage. We need more people that want to work, not minimum wage.
 
I don't know what you see in your towns and maybe $15 an hour is a lot of money down there but up here where there trying the same thing. Were at $11 something an hour now. A starter home up here is $400,000-500,000. Just to rent a room in someone's house is $400-500 a month a **** *** apartment is $1000-1200. A good apartment is $1600 plus. A house is $1600- $2400 plus utilities. And I live 20 mins outside of Toronto it's worse there.

If your lucky enough to have a job that will give you 40 hours a week your take is about $350 so $1400 a month good luck with that lol.

A lot of you act that people want a hand out at $15 dollars an hour they just want a respectable wage.

It's not kid working in these fast food places or even young adults there's some of course but a lot of 25 all the way to seniors and a lot with college degrees.

And a lot are women and as a cab driver I find a lot of women have 2-3 jobs trying to support there families it's not laziness.
 
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kazooom said:
We have the same problem here in our shop. There are not enough techs. People just do not want to work for their money, do not want to spend the time to learn or even show up for work. A 30 year old prepper complained he was not making enough money. He is always late and calls in sick at least 3 times a month and for days at a time. Owner said no problem, you will get another raise and you get to name the figure. All you have to do is be on time and do not call in sick for one month. We'll then sit down and talk money. He lasted for 3 days. By the way... no one in our shop of 54 makes minimum wage. We need more people that want to work, not minimum wage.
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I feel also part of the problem is the notion that a college degree is the answer to a life of prosperity. That seems to be drilled into students from the time they are in grade school. Where did all the shop classes in our public school system go?? Not saying College is not a good thing but Tech Schools have a lot to offer and should not be looked down as a second rate option. Getting you hands dirty does not make you any less of a person as a paper pusher!
 
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I think what is being pointed out is that there are other jobs that require some skill available. Our school systems are failing - no shop classes or tech schools. And lets be honest, some (many) people get a college degree to just say they have one. Many of those degrees have no practical experience (like my history degree)

As minimum wage and health care requirements increase what happens? The smaller local stores go under so there is only the chain stores. And of course, they set the hours
 
fl 71 said:
I feel also part of the problem is the notion that a college degree is the answer to a life of prosperity. That seems to be drilled into students from the time they are in grade school. Where did all the shop classes go in our public school system go?? Not saying College is not a good thing but Tech Schools have a lot to offer and should not be looked down as a second rate option. Getting you hands dirty does not make you any less of a person as a paper pusher!
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That's true education is the biggest let down for the youth. That's the problem here everyone is push to go to college focused a lot of business type jobs. And has left the trades short handed.

A friend of mine went 3 years of schooling to be a 911 dispatcher. The local college probably pumps out 100 or so kids train a year for this not including other colleges for something maybe 2-3 position open up a year. Colleges should be preparing people for the jobs needed out there not just a money grab. And yes my friend is at fault to she should of researched the likelihood of being hired in that field.
 
I have been saying for years now that we are going to end up with a society that has read all about it, but doesn't actually know how to do anything.

Beside the point though.
Train a new person that got hired making more than you do after you have been there for years and have climbed the company ladder only to have someone new that you are responsible for training placed a rung above you financially.
They make more than you do, although they have none of the certifications, training or experience you do.

Like my Son said, "I didn't go there every day for three years to get certifications, I went there every day for three years to make money".
"The certs were necessary to make more money, but the new person gets all the benefits of the money and didn't have to do any of the work to get there".

It's a real world case of "being born on third base" and it's having a destructive effect on good employees.
 
Again, trying to understand a complex situation like human motivations as broken down by the topic of career with context of a specific age group in a given geographical area, is not a simple conversation.

We need to look at parental instillments, culture, educational harboring, and societal constraints... to try to fully understand differences in employability and labor force stability.

BUT STILL this is not the original topic, simplly a side ranting.
 
[/QUOTE]BUT STILL this is not the original topic, simplly a side ranting.[/QUOTE]

Actually you are still on topic. It is just that you are digging into part of the Minimum Wage problem that most people just don't want to talk about....

JW
 
The issue is whether you believe the governing system has the power over your righy to tell you what you can not pay someone for performing a task.

With the amount the us money supply has skyrocketed and the currency devalued, wages are hard to figure correctly.

The cost of living is very bastardized. With so many differing costs, taxes, benefit programs, insurance rates, etc... it is difficult to understand a proper wage... especially with subsidies and product costs needing to compete globally.

With so many interference in the market, confusion and chaos are going to result.
 
I don't get this blind faith in capitalism (I'm not a communist) in the early 20th century you basically had your Laissez-faire capitalism look how workers and the environment was treated then. That's why unions where born to combat the unfairness of the system.

The government "us" don't forget we are the government we put people in place to do our biding. Can and should decide the rules of operation that is best for all not just a few.
It's not like the rich are hard done by 1% of the people own 99% of the wealth I'm sure the system ain't ******* them and the worst part is there greed is so bad they want more lol.

Look at it this way if society stop today who would be more effected a bum on the street or Bill Gates ? Not picking Bill he's actually a good guy. Obviously Bill Gates the bum has less stake in the system his life will barely change but on the other hand Bill will there will be no more cops and laws to protect his fortune "ownership" and with the collapse of the infrastructure it will be hard for Microsoft to carry on. Do you think Bill Gates would be Bill Gates if he was born in Afghanistan it would of been impossible to start Microsoft there.

I'm just saying wealth ain't created in a bubble. It's a chain of events created by all of us and certain individuals are at the right place at the right time to take advantage of it. But to think they done it all on their own and owe nothing back to the system is false.

Look what drives our economy now computers and Internet where did they come from? Your government investing billions and billions of dollars into it. Without the government contracting IBM to develop the computer there would be no PC and no Bill Gates and where would Google be if the government didn't push for the Internet as a defense communication system.

We have the rights to tax and ask for our share and definitely yes we have the right to be paid decently. Cause we the people have granted them the right to operate in our country's which can be revoked. This is our monopoly game we make the rules.
Not really they but we should :)
 
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I remember talking to a cool old bricklayer on a job we had at a townhouse complex! He was tending his own barrel, mixing his own mud, stocking his own scaffolding, and it was February! I asked him where his help was and he replied...." used to be I could drive down the road, open my door, and they jump right in! Nowadays, they just close the shades""!!!
 
273 said:
I don't get this blind faith in capitalism (I'm not a communist) in the early 20th century you basically had your Laissez-faire capitalism look how workers and the environment was treated then. That's why unions where born to combat the unfairness of the system.

The government "us" don't forget we are the government we put people in place to do our biding. Can and should decide the rules of operation that is best for all not just a few.
It's not like the rich are hard done by 1% of the people own 99% of the wealth I'm sure the system ain't ******* them and the worst part is there greed is so bad they want more lol.

Look at it this way if society stop today who would be more effected a bum on the street or Bill Gates ? Not picking Bill he's actually a good guy. Obviously Bill Gates the bum has less stake in the system his life will barely change but on the other hand Bill will there will be no more cops and laws to protect his fortune "ownership" and with the collapse of the infrastructure it will be hard for Microsoft to carry on. Do you think Bill Gates would be Bill Gates if he was born in Afghanistan it would of been impossible to start Microsoft there.

I'm just saying wealth ain't created in a bubble. It's a chain of events created by all of us and certain individuals are at the right place at the right time to take advantage of it. But to think they done it all on their own and owe nothing back to the system is false.

Look what drives our economy now computers and Internet where did they come from? Your government investing billions and billions of dollars into it. Without the government contracting IBM to develop the computer there would be no PC and no Bill Gates and where would Google be if the government didn't push for the Internet as a defense communication system.

We have the rights to tax and ask for our share and definitely yes we have the right to be paid decently. Cause we the people have granted them the right to operate in our country's which can be revoked. This is our monopoly game we make the rules.
Not really they but we should :)
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First, capitalism itself is a term popularized by Marx and socialists, as a way to demonize wealth and the wealthy. The industrial era working conditions was nothing new, most of human history was predicated on lax and dangerous working conditions. New technologies and industries simply created new ways and bigger scale endeavors. Compare any industrial era project or career's condition statistics to say... the Great Wall of China, or Pyramids. Mass communications (books, newspapers, etc) allowed the socialist liberalized media to paint a picture of supervillan wealthy people and societies.

Second, no one argues that wealth is created in a bubble... though there are people who discovered and homesteaded remote land and harvested oil or gold without societal help. The idea that you owe me something because I helped pay for a road is flawed and philosophically corrupt.

"We have the rights to tax and ask for our share and definitely yes we have the right to be paid decently"

Tell me. Do you have the right to take property from your neighbor, or else you can harm them and take it from them? Do three of your neighbors have the right to do it, if you don't? Morally there is no "right" to tax someone else, or take their property "or else". Government exists on force and might makes right, not legitimate morally/ philosophically just action or rights. Don't confuse yourself of that.

"This is our monopoly game we make the rules."

Pretty much, the system is just an adhoc geographical monopoly. It is not perfect, it is what it is. This is simply another evolution of the tribalism mindset.

Economics is more pure than the ideological opinions of politics, eventually numbers are numbers, and human action is overall consistent.


Remember life is not and will never be perfect. When you try to make it perfect... it still won't be perfect... or it won't be life.
 
toolmanmike said:
This helped me understand. If the link works.
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Iwould give you a like for this but I don't want you to become addicted. LOL I don't know how you came across this video but It explains so much, and more importantly tells me what to do to help fix it. Just went to my TOP POST FOR 2016
 
273 said:
We've can't base are whole existence on the needs of business profits. Business are here to feed our needs not the other way around.

There's got to be more to life then turning "our" natural resources into things we really don't need (in a lot of cases forever changing the faces of the world probably for the worse with a cost that's gonna be dropped at someone else's feet) for the power and enrichment of the few.

Business don't pay the full cost of doing business they off load a lot of it to tax payers. If we held all business for the cost of them being operational the would be none.
Why is it unfair when it comes at the cost of there profits but not when it comes out of our taxes ??
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WTF? I don't know exactly what your rambling on about but the goal of any business is to make money. If your not making money then your out of business. It's that easy. What you can't do is base your business on "feeding the needs" of your employees. And to say that "businesses don't pay the full cost of doing business" might possibly be the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Not only are businesses taxed to do business they also have to buy permits and licenses and payroll tax and inventory taxes,etc,etc.... if you think taxpayers pick up some of the cost associated with doing business then you my friend are completely out of touch with reality. As a person who helped operate a successful business or two for 40+ years I can assure you that the only way the government gets involved is they make rules for you to follow and come at you with their hand out looking to take your money. There were a lot of years we were in business that we did 100 million in sales and didn't turn a profit. Money went into taxes insurance,wages, equipment,utilities, and all the other costs associated with doing business. On the up side we had almost 300 employees who earned a living, provided for their family's and had insurance that we paid for. I was part owner and a lot of my employees made more money than I did. If I just had back all the money our company paid out in taxes and insurance I would probably be a billionaire.
 
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hemichuck said:
WTF? I don't know exactly what your rambling on about but the goal of any business is to make money. If your not making money then your out of business. It's that easy. What you can't do is base your business on "feeding the needs" of your employees. And to say that "businesses don't pay the full cost of doing business" might possibly be the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Not only are businesses taxed to do business they also have to buy permits and licenses and payroll tax and inventory taxes,etc,etc.... if you think taxpayers pick up some of the cost associated with doing business then you my friend are completely out of touch with reality. As a person who helped operate a successful business or two for 40+ years I can assure you that the only way the government gets involved is they make rules for you to follow and come at you with their hand out looking to take your money.
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What I was saying is business are our creation that can bend to are wills. People seem to think businesses have certain inevitable rights like these an 11 th commandment or something.

And you don't pay for all the cost of doing business. Try setting up a chain of walmart in Afghanistan there's no infrastructure to support it so walmart would have to create it.

We take a lot for granted if you have a store and people show is cause there's roads going there they didn't appear out of no where. Plus look at the manufacturers do you think they pay back even 1 10 th of the environmental damage they do ?
 
The first time someone traded a seashell for a piece of fish is when business started, and the guy that offered 2 shells put the first guy out of business. You don't need a Walmart to have business, just a knowledge that the best will go to the highest bidder. Its my job to be the best.
 
273 said:
What I was saying is business are our creation that can bend to are wills. People seem to think businesses have certain inevitable rights like these an 11 th commandment or something.

And you don't pay for all the cost of doing business. Try setting up a chain of walmart in Afghanistan there's no infrastructure to support it so walmart would have to create it.

We take a lot for granted if you have a store and people show is cause there's roads going there they didn't appear out of no where. Plus look at the manufacturers do you think they pay back even 1 10 th of the environmental damage they do ?
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Rambling again, you obviously have never been invlolved in the ownership of a business. There's a reason there are no Walmart in Afghanistan and a bunch of other places. Walmart are placed by looking at the demographics of the area they are going into. They don't just build them and hope it works. If your talking about infrastructure such as roads and everything else that's associated with placing a large business, that cost goes to the developer. Some places will offer large corporations tax incentives to get them established but the govt makes all that back on sales tax and payroll taxes and all the other taxes they hammer you with. I was in business for 40 years, the last few we did over $110 million a year in sales and I can tell you we never received 1 cent of assistance from the government or anyone else. The government enacts laws to prevent environmental damages and the cost of adhering to these laws is the responsibility of the business. You might want to go back and do your homework.
 
72Valiant4Door said:
First, capitalism itself is a term popularized by Marx and socialists, as a way to demonize wealth and the wealthy. The industrial era working conditions was nothing new, most of human history was predicated on lax and dangerous working conditions. New technologies and industries simply created new ways and bigger scale endeavors. Compare any industrial era project or career's condition statistics to say... the Great Wall of China, or Pyramids. Mass communications (books, newspapers, etc) allowed the socialist liberalized media to paint a picture of supervillan wealthy people and societies.
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Not trying vilified the rich but there's and "ours" motive of greed do cause a lot of the
atrocities of the world the rich helped Hitler rise for fear of communism. A lot of the arm conflicts in South America been over Corporate intrest. Not to mention the almost genocide of Native Americans here. Shell even hired it own army to wipe a village off the map in Africa cause they protesting the ruining of the drinking water.

72Valiant4Door said:
Second, no one argues that wealth is created in a bubble... though there are people who discovered and homesteaded remote land and harvested oil or gold without societal help. The idea that you owe me something because I helped pay for a road is flawed and philosophically corrupt.
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Again not out of isolation if Europe wasn't looking for a quicker way to Asia wouldn't have found America. It's not like the first guy that got to America drove to Texas and started drilling oil. It was built on the backs of everyone before.

72Valiant4Door said:
Tell me. Do you have the right to take property from your neighbor, or else you can harm them and take it from them? Do three of your neighbors have the right to do it, if you don't? Morally there is no "right" to tax someone else, or take their property "or else". Government exists on force and might makes right, not legitimate morally/ philosophically just action or rights. Don't confuse yourself of that.
[\QUOTE]
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That's a big one cause I don't believe in a inherited right and wrong. I believe it is what we say it is. Taxes been since the invention of money get over it. The question is fairly or unfairly ?
 
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72Valiant4Door said:
Pretty much, the system is just an adhoc geographical monopoly. It is not perfect, it is what it is. This is simply another evolution of the tribalism mindset.

Economics is more pure than the ideological opinions of politics, eventually numbers are numbers, and human action is overall consistent.


Remember life is not and will never be perfect. When you try to make it perfect... it still won't be perfect... or it won't be life. [\QUOTE]
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True I get it won't be perfect especially we can't agree what's perfect but I don't get why people don't think society should do it's best for the least of us.

Every one assume poor are poor cause there lazy.

If unemployment gets to low they raise interested rates to keep it around 3-5%
and the 10 % or so above them will always be at the bottom of the job pool so to keep your wages the middle classes wages in check.

So we should just say f**k the poor ?
I'm pretty sure Jesus said that somewhere in the bible lol.

So what's your solution if raising minimum wage is a waste ?
 
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wow, some interesting ideas here

Hitler had zero to do with being rich (I've read some wild theories of the rise of Nazism, but that isn't one of them). Yes, he did get some of the elite (because of Goring (war hero - last commander of the flying circus(red baron) with a movie star wife). And you know the Germans were massivily taxed for the war - so printed money - which DEVALUED it. So nobody was rich. Buying a loaf of bread with a wheel barrow of money. So stop - Hitler has nothing to do with the modern world. The factors to his rise to power do not exist in the western world today

Socialism doesn't work - the USA is one of the least taxed nations. Europe has some of the highest taxation in the world - but they have the most services. Good or bad - that is a massive change

Capitalism - wealth is controlled by private owners. More recently restriction have been placed on business. But business will also grow and adapt. Moving over seas because the government does not have tariff protection. (and salaries are lower). Other factors as well.

Lastly, it doesn't matter the political systems PEOPLE will find a way to cheat it and other people will suffer. That is human nature
 
hemichuck said:
Rambling again, you obviously have never been invlolved in the ownership of a business. There's a reason there are no Walmart in Afghanistan and a bunch of other places. Walmart are placed by looking at the demographics of the area they are going into. They don't just build them and hope it works. If your talking about infrastructure such as roads and everything else that's associated with placing a large business, that cost goes to the developer. Some places will offer large corporations tax incentives to get them established but the govt makes all that back on sales tax and payroll taxes and all the other taxes they hammer you with. I was in business for 40 years, the last few we did over $110 million a year in sales and I can tell you we never received 1 cent of assistance from the government or anyone else. The government enacts laws to prevent environmental damages and the cost of adhering to these laws is the responsibility of the business. You might want to go back and do your homework.
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Ok sales tax and payroll tax so your customers and employees paid their taxes.
And companies get tax incentives ah so hard done by :(
 
To take this 1 step further, experts say a democracy will last until the population figures out they can vote themselves a handout from the government, usually takes about 200 years. Couple that with the tipping point of % of population working for the government plus the % collecting from the government vs the % paying in, Obamacare case in point. Wish us luck.
 
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