Talk me into or out of Holley Terminator X

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Aftermarket EFI has not been perfected like the Factory EFI.
I beg to differ. There are ECUs on the market that can do more than any factory ecu with regards to engine controlability. The communication aspect between different modules isn’t there yet like OEM stuff but really isnt needed. Some do have CAN networks that rival manufacturer level stuff. Some of the common ones by Haltech, Holley dominator, and the former AEM infinity (now owned by Holley which is why their tech is so advanced now) as well as a few others would blow your mind with how capable they are. I’ve tuned (and currently own and tune) both factory ECUs with programs like HP Tuners as well as AEM infinity and have done a couple Holley ECUs for other people and for what we are interested in with our hotrods, the aftermarket efi stuff is incredible. If you break down and don’t know how to read a datalog or figure out which sensor isn’t communicating with the ecu that’s on you, It’s super easy comparatively speaking.
 
I've got an 05 Ram that is 20 years old. It has 4 oxygen sensors, one just went bad and I was lucky enough to replace the right one. In the 20 years never failed to start. I had one EFI go bad on a 71 Cuda and it was the ECU that went bad, again truck flat bedded home. Next day started fine, ran it, shut it off refused to start. Next day same thing and refused to start. So when somebody can say that after market is as dependable as factory EFI I might buy it. Without EFI it's either no spark or no fuel and easy enough to figure out. A lot of us guys here are old school and never got in the new Technology era.
 
I've got an 05 Ram that is 20 years old. It has 4 oxygen sensors, one just went bad and I was lucky enough to replace the right one. In the 20 years never failed to start. I had one EFI go bad on a 71 Cuda and it was the ECU that went bad, again truck flat bedded home. Next day started fine, ran it, shut it off refused to start. Next day same thing and refused to start. So when somebody can say that after market is as dependable as factory EFI I might buy it. Without EFI it's either no spark or no fuel and easy enough to figure out. A lot of us guys here are old school and never got in the new Technology era.
What ecu was on the Cuda? I didn’t say “all” aftermarket ECUs were good.
 
Your exaggerating what I said. I said the tbi systems have the same shortcomings as a carburetor. What I mean by that, is wet flow. Not concerned about dirty hands and all the other gibberish. And a novice will spend a BUNCH more time learning to tune with those systems.
No I did not. "Wet manifold" is not a real problem. Dirty hands are not "gibberish." A novice who knows little about carbs may be on quite even footing between learning one over the other , especially if he/ she has grown up using computers.
 
The first time you get stuck and can't figure out what's wrong, you'll consider going back to a carb. Happened to me and I felt so helpless especially when the car was on the flatbed truck going back home. Aftermarket EFI has not been perfected like the Factory EFI.
LOL, well, modern OEM EFI will put you on a truck just as quick as aftermarket, if it quits. All it takes, EG is a dead fuel pump, which you cannot change, on the side of the road, because it's in the tank. Last three pumps I changed (different rigs) I pulled the bed
 
A throttle body style EFI has the same shortcomings of a carburetor. If your going EFI, the best route is multi port.
Ding, ding, ding....correct! This is why TBI did not last all that long on OEM engines. Couldn't get to PFI fast enough! Getting air distribution on an intake is hard enough. Getting the wet fuel flow in addition to the airflow is a whole 'nother world of development. So if you can get the air dist acceptable, then just shoot the fuel at the intake valve (PFI) and you'll be quite a bit ahead. (Of course, how to position/angle the injector is another significant development piece of work.) Or better yet, just inject the fuel into the chamber (direct injection or DI). This was done to increase the power output as the fuel no longer takes up the volume with the air going through the port/into the cyl (i.e. better volumetric efficiency), and there's no worry about fuel flow/distribution. DI also allowed the CR to be increased as the heat of vaporization also helps cool the chamber further enhancing fuel efficiency and power. And then you work on piston topography to get the flame propogation required to meet the emission standards required. Fun,fun, fun! And then...

Ahh...I digress. Sorry - back to the regularly scheduled programming! (I worked on this stuff for too many years on too many prod engines I suppose.)
 
Yeah fuel injections fine if that's the route you want to go and want a pony up the money. It'll never look right on a muscle car and I wil most likely never have one on my 340s. I think I will have them put an 850 thermoquad in my hands when I die and surround my head with three Holley two barrels yeah that sounds cool. I'll just make sure none of you guys know where I'm buried .:lol:
 
The first time you get stuck and can't figure out what's wrong, you'll consider going back to a carb. Happened to me and I felt so helpless especially when the car was on the flatbed truck going back home. Aftermarket EFI has not been perfected like the Factory EFI.
Never really thought about that. Great point. This was the cherry on top.
 

Yeah fuel injections fine if that's the route you want to go and want a pony up the money. It'll never look right on a muscle car and I wil most likely never have one on my 340s. I think I will have them put an 850 thermoquad in my hands when I die and surround my head with three Holley two barrels yeah that sounds cool. I'll just make sure none of you guys know where I'm buried .:lol:
Yeah , I had a friend talk it up the other day so I had to put this post up to prove my point. They make fun of my "outdated ways" but I will always have a carburetor and a 4 speed. If I want Overdrive oe fuel injection , I'd buy a car from the 80s
 
"Wet manifold" is not a real problem.
It absolutely 100% without a doubt is a real problem. It’s likely that 80% of guys will never get to the point of dealing with it, that I believe, but it most definitely is a real problem.
 
The problem with some after market EFI is they put the ECU in the throttle body which is subject to heat, just like a carb. My problem with the EFI was the ECU got heat, would run but wouldn't restart. That's why next day would start, but after running would not start. Maybe they corrected the problem, but getting stuck in an old muscle car suxs.
 
Don't do it!!!! Purchasers are known to contract severe symptoms of Holleyitis...often incurable.
 
The problem with some after market EFI is they put the ECU in the throttle body which is subject to heat, just like a carb. My problem with the EFI was the ECU got heat, would run but wouldn't restart. That's why next day would start, but after running would not start. Maybe they corrected the problem, but getting stuck in an old muscle car suxs.
This is exactly why I went with an Edelbrock PF4, no regrets with this EFI system either.
 
This is exactly why I went with an Edelbrock PF4, no regrets with this EFI system either.
Apples and oranges comparison though. As the original poster was looking into the throttle body injection, whereas the Edelbrock's PF4 is multi-port.

A buddy of mine, The Outlaw DennisH" loves his PF4 too.

If you compare Holley's multi-port to the PF4, its a whole nother discussion.
 
The Edelbrock PF4 came late in the game of after market EFI. Maybe it will eliminate problems throttle body EFI has. Time will tell.
 
The X is a great piece. It will run good at all temps. like a modern car. It's a very expensive option. It can gather all kinds of information if you purchase the extra sensors. It works best at data gathering data and can be a great tool. I'm not sure but I'll bet you'll spend 4-5 grand to get started. If you need the data it's a great system to start with. The capabilities are just unbelievable.
 
Any system is tricky, carb or EFI. You can spend a lot of time tuning and chasing your tail with both, but in the end, once both are tuned right, you likely won't touch either after they are set. So the main question is how you want to spend your time tuning? I have a Megasquirt system on my 5.7 Hemi swap in my 67 and feel like I have redone the tune from scratch three times now, but that's also just because I have the ability to mess with it and I'm trying new things and attempting to get the car to feel as close as I can to a modern factory ECU. I'm fighting all the little inconsistencies now like the AFR over-correcting going to work in the morning, but under-correcting on the way home. It makes near zero difference to how it feels to drive it, but by being able to record and view the data, I know something is off. I think some of it too is that I just want to keep tinkering with it, and it's as easy as changing some numbers on a program. One of these days though (hopefully), I'll get everything set up right and will never have to touch it again unless I actually change engine parts.

You could do the exact same thing with a carb though. You could chase things all day and try different rod/jet/valve/etc. combos until you get everything just the way you want it, then you'll never have to touch it again. The only difference is you had to mechanically change those things compared to changing the values in a tuning program. I think it's fun to play with my EFI system and try all the different things it can do (like traction control, idle control, fans, A/C, etc.) and gradually add features to the car, but that's also just because it's the kind of thing I enjoy doing. I'm constantly changing my car to make it as comfortable and tailored for me as I can get it because I'm the only one who drives it, so why not? It sounds like you've already got that with your car, so unless you just like tinkering and learning new things, it probably makes sense to leave it.
 
All these after market EFI's tout self learning, so in a way they make it sound like just install it and drive it and it'll be OK. Which is far from the truth, you must be a computer wiz to fine tune it for maximize performance. When I first installed the EFI that quit on me, after intial installation I took it to someone and he said his computer guy gets $200 an hour to work on it. So all this self learning is BS.
 
All these after market EFI's tout self learning, so in a way they make it sound like just install it and drive it and it'll be OK. Which is far from the truth, you must be a computer wiz to fine tune it for maximize performance. When I first installed the EFI that quit on me, after intial installation I took it to someone and he said his computer guy gets $200 an hour to work on it. So all this self learning is BS.
I can't vouch for all the different systems, but for the most part I think the self learning stuff does a pretty good job and will get you close. I agree if you want every last bit of power and economy that you need to fine tune it yourself though. The main thing with the self learn on the MS system is that you have to manually start and stop it, which is good and bad. Annoying because it means you need a computer attached to do it, so it's not always updating (though it will always be correcting the mixture to your target to some degree depending on your settings). Good though because it means you can see what it's doing so you can back it off if it's making dumb changes. Ultimately you have to have the map semi close for it to work best anyway. You can get it into a nasty loop where if you are running too rich it will actually misfire, which reads as lean to an O2 sensor because there's a lot of oxygen in the exhaust because it never lit off to begin with. Then the computer thinks you're lean because that's what the sensor is telling it, so it adds more fuel to compound the issue.

Tuning ignition is harder than tuning fuel in my eyes though. Fuel is "easy" with a wideband sensor in that you have instant feedback and a target number to shoot for, ignition is more seat of the pants and needs a dyno to do it best. I wonder if that $200 an hour includes dyno costs.
 
This is exactly why I went with an Edelbrock PF4, no regrets with this EFI system either.

On small block or big block? If it was a small block, did you have issues with the windshield washer motor and distributor?
 
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