How much caster do you need? Just do the moog offset bushings and call it good. They give the caster and a maintain the camber.
The man wants MORE caster. How about this idea?
- Thread starter Kern Dog
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Maybe you've never heard of "Tolerance stack up" ?
In most cases, all of the acceptable tolerances balance each other out. A frame rail could be slightly shorter on one side, slightly longer on the other, the K member could have its LCA pin further to centerline on one side and further away on the other, etc.
A car that was somehow built with all of those tolerances to the good can happen. My Charger has been aligned with more caster than any other stock Mopar I've owned even before using the offset bushings.
This car though...
I tried aligning it twice. During reassembly, i set the alignment cams set full outward in front, inward in rear for maximum caster and after they messed with it, it barely got 1 degree. The offset bushings were able to allow just over 2 degrees. It steered okay but wasn't good enough.
I'm the guy that loves to try things on the cheap. I like the idea of making stuff work better with little changes.
In most cases, all of the acceptable tolerances balance each other out. A frame rail could be slightly shorter on one side, slightly longer on the other, the K member could have its LCA pin further to centerline on one side and further away on the other, etc.
A car that was somehow built with all of those tolerances to the good can happen. My Charger has been aligned with more caster than any other stock Mopar I've owned even before using the offset bushings.
This car though...
I tried aligning it twice. During reassembly, i set the alignment cams set full outward in front, inward in rear for maximum caster and after they messed with it, it barely got 1 degree. The offset bushings were able to allow just over 2 degrees. It steered okay but wasn't good enough.
I'm the guy that loves to try things on the cheap. I like the idea of making stuff work better with little changes.
junkyardhero
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KD, just sell some parts and then take that cash and buy new adjustable uppers. hell, you could probably get $150 for the stockers and that's a good chunk toward some new units.
you're not out of pocket, got rid of stuff, made room and adios'd them old arms as well. problem solved.
you're not out of pocket, got rid of stuff, made room and adios'd them old arms as well. problem solved.
Oh, I have the money. It is not about that in the least.
I started with a junkyard mindset and it stuck with me. I worked construction for years and was a damned good framer. I was the guy that didn't mind using up the scraps, the imperfect wood, the leftovers. It was a challenge to make it work but I know I saved my employers a bunch of money.
I worked as if the lumber actually was limited. This is not a bad quality to have.
With cars, I love to find ways to improve things without defaulting to buying something new. I've modified sway bars to fit cars that they weren't designed for. The Dart has a front bar from a 73-87 Chevy C30 truck. The rear bar is from an 82-92 Z28. The rear bar on my 2007 Dodge truck is from a Chevy Suburban.
It is fun for me.
I started with a junkyard mindset and it stuck with me. I worked construction for years and was a damned good framer. I was the guy that didn't mind using up the scraps, the imperfect wood, the leftovers. It was a challenge to make it work but I know I saved my employers a bunch of money.
I worked as if the lumber actually was limited. This is not a bad quality to have.
With cars, I love to find ways to improve things without defaulting to buying something new. I've modified sway bars to fit cars that they weren't designed for. The Dart has a front bar from a 73-87 Chevy C30 truck. The rear bar is from an 82-92 Z28. The rear bar on my 2007 Dodge truck is from a Chevy Suburban.
It is fun for me.
junkyardhero
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oh, i feel ya. i'm very much on the same page.
to me, when something critical like a suspension component is available and fits my needs it's worth the dosh to just press the easy button.
don't get me wrong, i still like the thrill of making something work on the cheap or the challenge or working within constraints. and with something like a modded out swaybar, that's super low stakes: cheap buy in, not a ton of labor, and if it gives up the ghost you're not gonna wind up in a ditch. so i'm totally down to clown in that type of arena.
but on something like a control arm, i'm gonna pass. juice ain't worth the squeeze. and the risk is too great of me suddenly becoming two racoons in a trench coat, rather than three-- and honestly, that would just look odd.
Phreakish
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Best way to do it is to just do it.
Put a doubler plate over the joint and make some half decent welds and it'll be fine. The stamped arms aren't exactly some exotic high strength tempered steel or anything. If you're really worried about the welds, get a gas torch and reheat them after welding then let it all air cool to avoid brittle areas immediately next to the weld.
With some careful measurements you should be able to figure out how much to remove to get a specific caster angle, or just go with trial and error and measure after tacking the arm together and adjust as needed.
Put a doubler plate over the joint and make some half decent welds and it'll be fine. The stamped arms aren't exactly some exotic high strength tempered steel or anything. If you're really worried about the welds, get a gas torch and reheat them after welding then let it all air cool to avoid brittle areas immediately next to the weld.
With some careful measurements you should be able to figure out how much to remove to get a specific caster angle, or just go with trial and error and measure after tacking the arm together and adjust as needed.
I wish that I knew an alignment guy that liked to tinker in his free time.
I estimated adding 1/4" just as a starting point. Something like this could be mocked up on a test chassis and measured and recorded. The tubular arms that are purported to add up to 3 degrees or more could be measured, "mapped" so to speak and then the stock arms could be measured to compare.
I have a buddy's car in the shop out back, a '68 Satellite with Firm Feel UCAs. I could measure them and compare them to my stock arms on the shelf.
For example, take the stock arm below...
I could measure between the zerk and the forward bushing and the same between the zerk and rearmost bushing and then compare the numbers to the Firm Feel arms. Just some bonehead logic at work here but I'd suspect that the aftermarket arms would have a longer front measurement than stock and a shorter rear number, effectively moving the top of the spindle/knuckle rearward.
By the way, what so many people call a spindle is actually a steering knuckle. The spindle is technically the horizontal section that the hub and brake attach to. Most people call the whole thing a spindle, just like how "emergency brake" gets used to describe what is actually a Parking Brake, a Sure Grip gets called a Posi, etc.
I estimated adding 1/4" just as a starting point. Something like this could be mocked up on a test chassis and measured and recorded. The tubular arms that are purported to add up to 3 degrees or more could be measured, "mapped" so to speak and then the stock arms could be measured to compare.
I have a buddy's car in the shop out back, a '68 Satellite with Firm Feel UCAs. I could measure them and compare them to my stock arms on the shelf.
For example, take the stock arm below...
I could measure between the zerk and the forward bushing and the same between the zerk and rearmost bushing and then compare the numbers to the Firm Feel arms. Just some bonehead logic at work here but I'd suspect that the aftermarket arms would have a longer front measurement than stock and a shorter rear number, effectively moving the top of the spindle/knuckle rearward.
By the way, what so many people call a spindle is actually a steering knuckle. The spindle is technically the horizontal section that the hub and brake attach to. Most people call the whole thing a spindle, just like how "emergency brake" gets used to describe what is actually a Parking Brake, a Sure Grip gets called a Posi, etc.
If it were me, I'd just use a hole saw a bit larger in diameter than the upper ball joint threads. Mount the UCA in a vice or fixture so the ball joint is at 0°, drill out the circle containing the ball joint mount, and then tilt the mount until you have the desired caster improvement. Weld the ball joint mount back in.
***edit*** You'd have to relocate the ball joint rearward. Changing the angle wouldn't do anything. ***
That way, there's no change in the length of the control arm, so the track width isn't changed any. I know that would be a small amount since you're only extending one leg of the UCA, but it would still change it some.
After welding the mount back in you could weld in an additional "ring" around the shoulder of the ball joint if you were concerned about the strength.
Technically yes. But even the factory used the terms interchangeably
Parts manual
Kit Car catalog
Now I'm not going to scour every factory publication and do a count, not the point. My point is just that its not just the general public that uses the terms interchangeably.
Sure Grip and Positraction are just the copyrighted trade names for a limited slip differential, they're just the same thing by a different manufacturer.
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I really like this idea. It might make a nice side hustle for someone with the requisite skills and tools. Increased caster with OEM appearance for a price below aftermarket tubular UCAs.
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It wouldn’t be super difficult. You can see the jig that was used for the TransAm series modification, it’s pretty darn simple.
I’m just not sure it’d be worth it. Even with a nice jig and clean control arms you’re looking at a couple hours labor, plus welding supplies. Add 2-way shipping into that and to make any money at it the price wouldn’t be all that much less than a set of tubular arms, especially adding in the cost of new bushings and ball joints since those are included in a lot of the tubular replacements.
Plus you’d no doubt get some control arms sent that were pretty rough, so then you’d have to spend more time cleaning or even make the judgment call not to work on some of them because of their condition.
Not saying it’s impossible or anything, but I won’t be setting up to do it.
Inertia
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Building super stocks and super modifiers, we were limited by rule to using stock control arms, but made no mention of "altered".
We were using Camaro clips, and butchered the control arms something fierce, then crashed em, not by choice, to "test" it.
Chop and weld away, all's good.
Cadillac had an interesting upper ball joints.
I used to bend the outer end of the lower control arm, then weld in the supports to "box" the control arm .
Using Moog offset bushes, I wasn't able to achieve more than 3*
caster, and most customers bitched about heavy steering at 3.
I usually set them up at 2 1/2 max, especially with manual steering.
There is also a fatigue issue some folks might have cranking the wheel .
Anyone given thought to what happens to toe when caster is way up?
We were using Camaro clips, and butchered the control arms something fierce, then crashed em, not by choice, to "test" it.
Chop and weld away, all's good.
Cadillac had an interesting upper ball joints.
I used to bend the outer end of the lower control arm, then weld in the supports to "box" the control arm .
Using Moog offset bushes, I wasn't able to achieve more than 3*
caster, and most customers bitched about heavy steering at 3.
I usually set them up at 2 1/2 max, especially with manual steering.
There is also a fatigue issue some folks might have cranking the wheel .
Anyone given thought to what happens to toe when caster is way up?
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See? I'm not the only one that likes to push these ideas!
Phreakish
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Wouldn't the ball joint have to be relocated, not just the angle changed? With the proper fixtures though, your proposed process would be relatively easy and have minimal knock-on effects. Fewer risks too since the integrity of the arms is retained.
Toe changes depends on a lot of things. Changing the caster would have a small effect, but so does lowering the car and a bunch of other things.
I run +6.5° of caster on my Duster and haven't noticed any bump steer. I did notice it when I was running 2" drop spindles on my Challenger.
Crap, you're absolutely right. Not enough coffee this morning. Changing the angle on a ball joint wouldn't do it. You'd have to slide the whole ball joint toward the rear of the car to increase the caster.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
If you're going to this trouble, we just chopsawed the end of the control arm off, weld a flat plate with a 4 bolt chev ball joint thru it.
Support and gusset as nec.
It'll look fabbed, be strong as hell, and ball joint attitude/location is totally up to you.
Just saying, - that's what we did a lotta times.
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Exactly, that would be the way to do it. Add a plate like this
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Upper-A-Arm-Ball-Joint-Plate-Only,39783.html
End up with something like this but plated into the stock UCA instead of tubular. And no worries about stripping ball joint mounting threads in the UCA.
Inertia
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Yep, as usual, right on, thank-you.
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junkyardhero
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there would be absolutely zero money in it (see below) and the amount of people interested in stock look + increased caster could be easily satiated with offset moog uppers. if you're looking for more than 3* it's likely you're beyond stock appearing rim & tire combo, anyway.
all of this.
my back of the barroom napkin maths breaks down thusly: 60 for UBJs, 90 for some offsets, let's say you score a set of arms at the yard for 100. so you're 250 into a set before: cleaning, modding, painting, listing, selling (answering dumb questions), and shipping.
if your profit aim is 10 bucks and a burrito, then, sure i suppose it's worth it. but same as 72, i'm not gearing up to do even stock arms when you can get them (if available) at $250-- even though who knows what balljoints or bushings are in the arm. because people see "NEW" and $250 so why would they want to buy a set of "reconditioned" arms from me for 300? they don't know or care about the balljoints or bushings. they just see a new piece they can snap right on the car and get on with choosing rims or a chrome aircleaner or whatever.
Thanks, but I don't know about "as usual"! @Phreakish definitely caught me sleeping earlier!
Yeah exactly. In order for it to be worthwhile you'd need to be able to get more caster than with the Moog offset bushings AND still be cheaper than a set of aftermarket tubular UCA's.
And the market would be tiny, because most of the folks that want them to look stock don't need that much caster. Plus, they wouldn't look stock if you looked that close anyway!
I've sold over 500 sets of HDK OEM replacement UCAs, and have never ran across this issue. Not to say it is not there, just never ran across it.
I will file it in my back pocket.... just in case
I think this is a great DYI project for anyone who has the skills. Pretty sure that was the intent of the op.
I feel ya on it being a $$$ maker.
autoxcuda
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It's an oddball situation. Most people convert their disk with slider type nowadays.
But a C.Y.A. opportunity.
They now only make aftermarket slider type adapters for 11" and 12" disks. They do not reproduce pin type adapters.
Pin type came on 70-72 cars and sporadic mid 70's B's. So rare to find junkyard donors now. The old Mopar Action article, "Disc-O-Tech" gave slight preference to Pin-Type calipers.
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Inertia
Well-Known Member
I'm curious at what point you think there is too much caster ?
There has to be a "too much caster", how much is that, and what is the symptom ?
When stuff never meant to take the stresses bend/flex and break, tire wear ?
There has to be a "too much caster", how much is that, and what is the symptom ?
When stuff never meant to take the stresses bend/flex and break, tire wear ?
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I was going to ask "how much caster do you need"? Bacially enough for the car to drive down the road with no hands on the wheel. May be more for a drag car or one for the salt flats.
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