Traction Control Needed...

-
Here's what I would like to do, you guys poke holes in this if you see the flaws.

I would like to purchase the following wheels tires UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that the rears will fit (and I'll make sure).

  • Fronts: Wheel Vintiques 48 Series 14" x 6" with 205/70-14 BFGoodrich tires.
  • Rears: Wheel Vintiques 48 Series 14" x 8" with 265/50-14 Coker BFGoodrich Silvertown tires (these say BFGoodrich on them so the fronts and rears will match).

I'm going to put the wheel picture and the car picture near each other below. Because I think they would look good together because the wheels look period, and the car has black and chrome trim that would match the wheels.
upload_2017-12-15_15-19-3.png

upload_2017-12-15_15-19-12.png
 
Unless you are relocating the rear springs you will not get a 265 or 255 tire on that car. No matter what size or offset wheel you use. If you can find the perfect offset wheel, a 245 or 235 might fit on it. I have been thru this, tried all different size tires and wheel offsets on this vintage of A-bodies, and these are the facts. And, you need to measure both sides of the car because what fits on one side might not fit on the other side!
 
No, and it won't look like a sportbike tire either. they look like that before you even put them on. By the way, you know there is no difference between a sportbike tire and any other streetbike tire, touring etc, right? Sportbike tires just tend to be wider however Harley has followed suit and in some cases gone even wider, 240's etc in factory trim.

It's more critical in the front but you aren't looking for huge rubber up front. To give you another idea MMT front runners are 7.50 tires and go on "approved" 3.5" wheels. Even then, you're putting stickies on the rear for a drag application. Handling isn't something we're talking about and your car unless modified/upgraded handles like...well a stock abody..lol.

I run 225's on a 8.5" wheel on my daily and it still have enough sidewall you can they then on their side gently without scuffing the wheel. In contrast my front runners on my dart are on 3.5's or 4" wheels with 12.50's out back on 11.25 wheels. I run 25lbs on street in the rear, 35 to 40 up front on my dart.

I have the same rear diff as you. It was a good choice. IMO the best choice.

As mentoned above, I'd recommend using offset hangers in the rear. If you are deadest on using those factory 14's, which I think you are crazy for..have them widened to the ideal width. Once you run offset shackles you can run a 10.5 section width tire.
INTERESTING !!!!!!!! I JUST YESTERDAY MEASURED MY 295 65 15 D.R., AND THEY ARE 12" WIDE , TREAD A LITTLE UNDR 10" . 68 FASDTBACK THO.
 
It just occured to me. 3 things.
  1. I need data. For all I know it may be running a 13.80 as is (I doubt it). But I'm not certain about it. So before I go through any more trouble, and possibly buying tires I may not need, I'm going to take it back to the strip and see where it is.
  2. The Dodge Demon requires a burnout to optimize the tires for a launch. So ... I need to go back to my line-lock thinking. Maybe with reasonable tires (215/60-14s), and a burnout (not on the current tires, new tires only) maybe it will hook up just enough to hit 13.99. That would be all I want ... for now. New dragstrip E.T. data will let me know. If I'm but a couple tenths off, maybe a burnout would be a benefit.
  3. It shifts to 2nd too quickly. I started reading a thread where the 727 could be adjusted to change its shift points. If anyone can link me to that info, that would be great. Ideally I would like it to shift to 2nd at 5,000 rpm (at full throttle).

7milesout
 
You could just slap some drag radials on it when you go to the strip. With the right wheels a 235/60-15 Hoosier DOT Drag Radial or a 235/60-15 M&H Racemaster Radial Drag tire would work.
 
I could. But the point is, i want it to do 13.9 seconds in its "daily driver" configuration. Drive to track, drive to start line, run 13.9 seconds, drive home. If I could achieve that, I will feel like I have really accomplished something ... from where the car started. And feel like I would have quite a nice Mopar.

Later, i may try to achieve 12.99, but that will take a few special track preparations, as you guys well know.

My Lexus LS 460L can run a 13.9 second E.T. with no prep. And it is at least 4,500 pounds and a smaller engine (4.6L V8). With a 5.9L and ~3,100 pounds, the ole Scamp needs to be able to run with the LS, and to be able to drive it to work, take the fellas to lunch (like a normal car if I were to want to) with no hassles, for me to feel satisfied with it.

That's my goal.


7milesout
 
I could. But the point is, i want it to do 13.9 seconds in its "daily driver" configuration. Drive to track, drive to start line, run 13.9 seconds, drive home. If I could achieve that, I will feel like I have really accomplished something ... from where the car started. And feel like I would have quite a nice Mopar.

Later, i may try to achieve 12.99, but that will take a few special track preparations, as you guys well know.

My Lexus LS 460L can run a 13.9 second E.T. with no prep. And it is at least 4,500 pounds and a smaller engine (4.6L V8). With a 5.9L and ~3,100 pounds, the ole Scamp needs to be able to run with the LS, and to be able to drive it to work, take the fellas to lunch (like a normal car if I were to want to) with no hassles, for me to feel satisfied with it.

That's my goal.


7milesout
my goal is to drive it to the track, run 10:50`s and drive it home. The drive home has me most worried tho ! LOL
 
Driving to and from the dragstrip has to do with having an overdrive, a comfortable seat and a good cooling system.

Mine drives to and from the strip and goes 11.70's.

Break out your wallet!!
 
Dang rocco - That's a heckuva ride. Mine has no overdrive, it stays nice and cool, and the seat comfort is fair. I'm limiting the exposure to my wallet to only get me to 13.99 ... for now. :D
 
It just occured to me. 3 things.
  1. I need data. For all I know it may be running a 13.80 as is (I doubt it). But I'm not certain about it. So before I go through any more trouble, and possibly buying tires I may not need, I'm going to take it back to the strip and see where it is.
  2. The Dodge Demon requires a burnout to optimize the tires for a launch. So ... I need to go back to my line-lock thinking. Maybe with reasonable tires (215/60-14s), and a burnout (not on the current tires, new tires only) maybe it will hook up just enough to hit 13.99. That would be all I want ... for now. New dragstrip E.T. data will let me know. If I'm but a couple tenths off, maybe a burnout would be a benefit.
  3. It shifts to 2nd too quickly. I started reading a thread where the 727 could be adjusted to change its shift points. If anyone can link me to that info, that would be great. Ideally I would like it to shift to 2nd at 5,000 rpm (at full throttle).7milesout
I hit 12.9@106 on 245/60-14s . This was with my 367 Eddie-headed beast with a Hughes 223@.050 cam,and 3.55s, so not a lot of power there. Just enough to spin a long long part of the way. I did no back-up run in case it was a fluke. I trapped in third at way past optimum rpm with an A833. I was only looking for 100mph, And I knew the engine was good for 7200, and I wasn't gonna "waste" a shift for the little ways I had to go. That shift, and rpm drop, wouldda probably put me in the 13s so, I think, think, she done good.

But, I never again would run 245s, without some serious traction aides. I mean that's a really,really,really small patch of rubber, to do all that work,just by itself,lol.
If you're going with street-tires,you need the tallest 15s you can fit in there, and never mind what it looks like or if it matches or not.Then work on the 2.2 or worse 60ft. If you can't trap at the top of third gear, you will not get the ET that matches your trap speed. That did not matter to me, I was just there for the MPH and track weight, so I could back-calculate the horsepower. Once you have that, then getting the matching ET is just a matter of spending the money and the time.
For instance, 106 at 3650 (my track-weight that day),calculates to 338hp.
But the 12.9 ET calculates to just 303hp.
My ET for the 338hp shoulda been 12.3.
So my suspension and tires cost me 0.6seconds, and guess what, most of it was right at the start line. I no longer remember the 60ft that day, but I'll just bet it was more than 2.2. Proper chassis weight might have brought that down to 1.9 or maybe 1.8. So right there we found .3 of a second. Then the way-off rpm at the trap killed the top end, so I'd have to guess the rest was there.
So I was content to know the potential of the car was low 12s. I wasn't about to spend many thousands of dollars chasing it.
I guess racing just ain't in my blood.

In any case; may the force be with you!

Ps,
the power to go 13.9 with a superstock chassis at 3300pounds is just 224 hp. With a street chassis costing you say .6 second, you will need 261 hp. The stock 8/1 360 is gonna need to be on top of it's game.
 
Last edited:
I did no back-up run in case it was a fluke.
I got a loud chuckle reading that! Because, your mindset and my mindset are the same ... brother! :D

That whole post of yours was a good read, I appreciated every word of it. Especially the PS. The 360 in my car is supposedly not exactly stock. And the car is like 3,100 pounds. With me in it, it's like 3,350. So yes, I agree, it has to be on top of its game. 13.9 would make me very happy. Before the next time at the track I'm going to perfect the AFR's at WOT (it's a bit lean at 12.9 or so IMO, I'm shooting for 12.2), and maybe even a fresh set of plugs. They're relatively fresh, but have gone through a lot of tuning. So much has been done to the car since the only trip I made to the track with it.

The previous owner said he used to run 13.9's all the time. But, to be honest, I think he's mixing up his 13.9's and 14.9's. I don't think he's lying, I think he's remembering wrong. He's 83, and it's been 10+ years since he took it down the track. The best I could get out of it the one time I took it was a 15.44. So I can conceive of a 14.9 (maybe) with that open diff. No friggin way it would have run a 13.9 with that open diff.

3.55's would help me on the track. At 13.9, I should be running about 96 ± 1 mph and 4,800 ± 100 rpm. But since I have a 3 speed non-overdrive, I'm going to keep the 3.23's. It's barely interstateable as it is.


7milesout
 
With all this cold weather, I've sort of put the car in the garage and haven't thought about this for a while. But now, I'm kind of locking into my game plan. Here's the thing. I'm running on Maypops, and that's not a good thing.

So I'm going to go ahead and buy the 215/60 R14 cheapies and slap them on there. That will get me off the Maypops. Because if I go straight for the big rears, I'll still have these wheels sitting around with Maypops on them. I'd rather these wheels sit around with new tires on it, if I go to wider tires. So I have decent wheels and tires to fall back on.

So there you have it. I'll get the 215/60's on there and report back in here when I do. I will also run it down the track when it warms up to see if they will hook, and if I can meet the 13.9999999999 second target.


BUT! I went and measured the clearances to the leaf springs and fenders. On the current 225/60's, I have 1 inch of clearance to the leaf springs. And 1.5" clearance to the fenders. For a total of 2.5 inches total clearance. The 265/50's are a hair under 2 inches wider. So let's just say they're 2 inches wider.

In Nirvana, the wider 265/50's would have 0.25" clearance on each side (sitting still). Let's just say that's how it worked out. 1/4" clearance each side. But when driving, is 1/4" clearance going to be too little? Would it tend to rub when the body rolls around in turns? 1. Sounds like it might rub under certain circumstances. And 2. it's not likely to be evenly spaced.


P.S. - I just eyeballed 1/4" on my calipers, that looks WAY TOO SMALL to not rub when flexing the tires. That's threading a needle. 1/2" clearance is probably getting too small.


7milesout
 
All you need to know was posted by me last year:
Unless you are relocating the rear springs you will not get a 265 or 255 tire on that car. No matter what size or offset wheel you use. If you can find the perfect offset wheel, a 245 or 235 might fit on it. I have been thru this, tried all different size tires and wheel offsets on this vintage of A-bodies, and these are the facts. And, you need to measure both sides of the car because what fits on one side might not fit on the other side!
 
If you smooth off the high spots on the inner fenders, you can run pretty tight,say1/4 inch, The tires will rub on aggressive turns, and it's like applying the brakes on a bicycle, but the sidewalls can take a bit of abuse.Slow down
This smoothing takes a big hammer,an iron rod,a good aim and a courageous helper. Eventually you will hit the shock support, and that's that! So just go there first, the tubs only stretch so far.
Since the sidewalls are now the body sway stoppers, you can run pretty tight to the fenders too. However, on the outside, as the wheel moves up into the tub, it encounters a huge rounded part in there and rubs on that. So then you have to increase the rear ride height. This makes the springs easier to twist, and so the tires rub sooner and harder on the tubs, limiting cornering. Eventually you get tired of that, and increase the inner clearance to 3/8, decreasing the outer clearance, and inviting a sidewall cut there.
But if you promise to corner really slowly, and avoid speedbumps, and potholes, you can run even closer than 1/4 inch. Just don't be in front of me more than once,lol.

The truth is, to deal with a stout SBM, and on the street;
you can't install a wide enough,or tall enough,street tire in even a Big-Tub A-body,(Duster/Demon/Barracuda) never mind a Dart, Scamp, or other.
So you have to find traction in other ways. You're gonna have to employ weight transfer techniques. Open your wallet and dig deep.

The ET difference, from zero to 30 or even to the top of first gear, without traction aid,being on the tallest, widest,fattest tires that will fit in your tubs, versus what you have on there now, is IMO, not hardly worth the time and dollars to get them in there. Having gone down that road, that's my opinion.
But those fat 325/50-15s surely do look good in there.
 
All you need to know was posted by me last year:
Unless you are relocating the rear springs you will not get a 265 or 255 tire on that car.
I hear ya. I believe you. And, if I can't hit 13.99 with the 215/60's I plan to be sportin' before too long, then I will look into the cost and complexity of relocating the springs. It being a MUST DO, it also sounds like probably the least complex of other ideas.
 
The ET difference, from zero to 30 or even to the top of first gear, without traction aid,being on the tallest, widest,fattest tires that will fit in your tubs, versus what you have on there now, is IMO, not hardly worth the time and dollars to get them in there. Having gone down that road, that's my opinion.
THAT, is my fear as well. I would live with 14.2 before I spend big money gaining clearance for 265's, to after all the work, only hit 14.05. Because I have considered the fact that it could be that the traction of 265's may be not much greater than 225's. And very easily could be NOT ENOUGH more, to hit 13.99.

So, my direction stands. I'm going to go ahead with the 215/60's, for the sake of removing the Maypops, and see what that may give me. These old tires are likely as hard as Hotwheels car "tires." New tires may be much more grippy just due to being new. Maybe they'll get me there. And if they do, I'll be perfectly happy. If they don't, I'm out not much money, and it is, back to the drawing board. :D


7milesout
 
You might try a traction aid
There are several to chose from now.
Back in the day we had slapper bars. And adjustable pinion snubbers, and SS springs, and drag-shocks, or 3-way adjustable shocks. These worked pretty good in the ET range you're talking about.
Nowadays and for faster cars,we have Caltracks, Assassin bars, monoleafs,and mega-adjustable shocks,etc.Not to mention ladder bars and bolt-in multi-links.Rear suspension technologies have exploded for our Mopars.
But I'll tell you something; on the start line,AT THE TRACK; at our typical power levels, there is barely 4 or 5 tenths of a second difference between going up in smoke, or a pretty good hook.
On the street, I started with 245/50-15s. Then 275/50s,275/60s,295/50s,and 325/50s. I have no idea of the differences in 60 fts, but I bet it wasn't much. The reason 295s went on was to give me better, more predictable control when sliding sideways, and almost instant recovery when I screw up. The 245s were instant 180s, with the slightest mistake. It was very frustrating and dangerous. So my fat tires are not on there for straight-line traction,but rather to save myazz.
For me, I look at the MPH and satisfy myself with knowing what the potential of my car is......if I was to spend a lot of money to get there. And I'm not. Sliding my car around, and drifting it, is just way more fun. Truth is, I'm a streeter since 1970. Drag racing was never in me, especially not the Qtr, it just takes soooooo long to get to the traps. Eighth I can do, but not real interested in it.
I do like grass rally-cross tho,lol. Just stuff it in second and hit it.And a left a left a right a left a right a straight a little jump, a right a short blast to the rev limiter and so on; 66 seconds later, and what a rush.Let's go again, not for low ET, I could care less about that, but rather for the sheer exhilaration.
 
First off, ditch the air shocks before you crack your shock mount stud sheetmetal!
Get the springs re-arched or buy some new ones if they sag.
I can't understand putting a 215 on the rear if you are looking for traction, even for normal driving.
If you are buying new rear wheels anyway, you might look at a 15x7 and have more tire choices, especially if you might ever want a drag radial at the track.
I can't tell you if a 245 or 255 is the biggest you can run, but the limiting factor on that car will be the fender wells before you ever hit springs.


I run a 15x8 with 275/60/15 and 4.25" backspace leaving 3/8" clearance to the springs and no rub, BUT with folks in the back or bad bumps I get a little on the fender lips. Point being, you need to get your tires as far inboard with backspace and maybe offset hangers, to run any serious tire size.
 
THAT, is my fear as well. I would live with 14.2 before I spend big money gaining clearance for 265's, to after all the work, only hit 14.05. Because I have considered the fact that it could be that the traction of 265's may be not much greater than 225's. And very easily could be NOT ENOUGH more, to hit 13.99.

So, my direction stands. I'm going to go ahead with the 215/60's, for the sake of removing the Maypops, and see what that may give me. These old tires are likely as hard as Hotwheels car "tires." New tires may be much more grippy just due to being new. Maybe they'll get me there. And if they do, I'll be perfectly happy. If they don't, I'm out not much money, and it is, back to the drawing board. :D


7milesout
I ran 235/60HR14's on My '72 Swinger, as always w/an old Mopar, one side was closer to the lip than the other and would touch a little...but I cornered that car HARD!
The rims were Chrome-Reversed rims, either 6 or 6 1/2" wide, there was more room to the leaves, don't recall how much but the "reverse" nature of the rim means
some for sure.
 
-
Back
Top