Is it worth the $ to build a 5.9 Magnum (or LA 360) without making it a stroker?

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MRGTX said:
Just tossing this one around this morning...and input, opinions, experiences are very welcome.

So I think most of us are familiar with the 4" crank stroker build for these motors and it seems like a very easy way to make a 450+hp small block.

The downside to a stroker motor is that the longer travel of the pistons means more losses due to friction and the increased force required to accelerate the pistons through much higher piston speeds. The effect can be a motor that's less happy to rev or one that starts to hit the physical limitations of the rods sooner, etc. Almost without exception, the tradeoff is well-worth it as the power gains are significant, especially if you're taking your car to the drag strip.

One part of driving that I have grown to love is a high-revving engine with a broad power band even if that comes at the sacrifice of the peak power. Low end grunt never gets old...but a motor that feels good on the far-right end of the tachometer is fun on a whole new level. For anyone who hasn't driven one yet, the sounds and sensations of good breathing V8 turning 7,000+ RPM is an experience that any gearhead needs to experience as soon as possible and as often as possible.

Is anything like this even attainable with our small blocks or would we need to look and Chevy LSx swaps to even consider this? :D

Currently, my stock Magnum is all done by about 4200. It never sounds particularly good, it never feels particularly good. There's no doubt that this motor would be much more at home under the hood of a Ram or a Dakota. It's basically the exact opposite of the V8 experience that I prefer.

How far can you take a Magnum 5.9 or an LA 360 with the stock crank? Is it worth the effort to do a build this way? How do these motors run?

Is it correct to say that our engines are limited by the valve-lift limitations of the head designs that we are stuck with?

Any thoughts are appreciated.
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Screw cost!

What do you want?

Build it!
 
RAMM said:
Look closely this is 6000 ish rpm. J.Rob
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Dammit you're right, I watched that so many times but just now watched again with the video in full-screen and it looks like he's shifting right before 6500 RPM, barely. The shaking camera and low resolution tricked my eyes.
 
MopaR&D said:
Dammit you're right, I watched that so many times but just now watched again with the video in full-screen and it looks like he's shifting right before 6500 RPM, barely. The shaking camera and low resolution tricked my eyes.
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Got it dialed in either way.
 
Bobzilla said:
If you want 7000 rpm very often with an LA or Magnum based engine, then get a good forged crank. Once you are buying a new crank, why not go bigger.
If 400-450 horsepower is the goal, especially at 6500 rpm and less, factory cast cranks can live a long happy life.
The friction and drag thoughts are not an issue with a 4" stroke Mopar small block. Getting it to rev quick has more to do with the combination of parts to make it breath, especially camshaft events.

Build Your Own 455HP Pump-Gas Magnum V8 For Around $4,000! - Hot Rod Network
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^^^^ Promotes 4" crank and then links a stock stroke build--LOL. J.Rob
 
AJ/FormS said:
For a streeter, I see no advantage for a stroker. You might like my recipe; see below.
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There is only an off idle torque advantage--EVERYONE feels this in the seat of the pants and translates this into HORSEPOWER which equals SPEED-IN THEIR MINDS. It does not necessarily translate into a car that IS FAST. I've wasted too much breath on this already but...... A 4" arm does not make good high rpm power UNLESS --GOOD (W2,W-series, Indy etc...) heads are executed. Strokers also do not "eat up cam duration" <<< this is a MYTH. Strokers NEED more cam because they are usually under-cylinder headed and need every chance they can get to fill the cylinders and this is in the form of keeping the valves open longer which is expressed as cam duration. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am not a fan of strokers. They typically do not RPM well or willingly, they do have more internal friction, they do stress the main caps more, rods more-due to piston speed and G-force, I could go on and on. However they do make a boat load more torque which to me equals tire smoke more often than not. A 4" arm in a Small Mopar is akin to a roots blower, some just want it because they gotta have it and I understand that, its a bragging rights thing. They are popular because they are easy. Making real power up to and past 7000 rpm is actually really difficult-but that sound and feeling when the engine is just getting into its sweet spot and pulling really hard @ 5000-5500 rpm is where its at for me. Most strokers are done by 5500 rpm--F@#$ strokers. LOL J.Rob

p.s. I know who is going to pile on about these comments and yes I understand that you BELIEVE that your strokers are revvers and making tons of power way on the far side of the tach. I believe that you believe OK?
 
pittsburghracer said:
Lol. Yes I have but with three cars I try to stick to a budget. I just had my Calias crank for my 572 cut down to Chevy rod size and by time everything was rebalanced i was looking at a 700.00 bill. I’m not complaining but if I am going to have extra money in a crank it’s smart money building a Stroker. Right???
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Yes you are complaining, and $700 dollars is nothing when dealing with the caliber of engines you surround yourself with. You know yourself the only thing smart about a stroker is the re-sale value 'cuz everyone wants one. And from the outside looking in you seem to be a wheeler-dealer. J.Rob
 
stixx said:
The everyman's 360 LA Eddy headed engine dyno tested

360 Street/Strip Bruiser-Dyno results

Cheepy Three-Sixty build

New life for an old 340 (stock stroke)

Just browse the forum or use the search function... MANY threads on here about builds that could fit the bill. The posted above are three 360's and one 340,
and that is just from one member here... Brian from IMM also posted some IIRC. There is TONS of food for thought on this forum!
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Thanks and you forgot one that is a particularly good example. LOL J.Rob

371 build W/Big Mouth heads
 
RAMM said:
Yes you are complaining, and $700 dollars is nothing when dealing with the caliber of engines you surround yourself with. You know yourself the only thing smart about a stroker is the re-sale value 'cuz everyone wants one. And from the outside looking in you seem to be a wheeler-dealer. J.Rob
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LOL, Ok you got me. I was complaining BUT in the machinists defense the work he performed on the quality of product I supplied was well worth the 700.00
I am a hoarder so any engine that I build at this point of my life is NEVER for sale. Wait till you see the next project I start after I finish the install of my 572. Short preview. .040 over bushed lifter 360 block, stock 360 crank cut to chevy size, diamond pistons, crower rods, nice roller cam, roller lifters, ATI damper, and a few other goodies. 9 second engine combo short block in pieces for around 1000.00 investment. Nice little back-up engine to have sitting ready on a stand with a set of my 2.05 intake valve Edelbrock heads and Victor intake.
 
RAMM said:
^^^^ Promotes 4" crank and then links a stock stroke build--LOL. J.Rob
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Not intentionally promoting 4" cranks. Just saying the negatives mentioned are not an issue.
In my opinion, the the 408 strokers are like 1980s chrome; lots of guys use them but don't need them. Everyone should build what they want.
Someone else said it best; at 400-450 horsepower, you don't need the stroker crank.
 
I’m not up on W2 heads but I didnt know they oil through the pushrods. Do They make oil through solid roller lifters?

Would it then be better to use a magnum block?
 
mopardude318 said:
I’m not up on W2 heads but I didnt know they oil through the pushrods. Do They make oil through solid roller lifters?

Would it then be better to use a magnum block?
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.
If you are using LA heads with a roller cam then use a pre magnum 88-92 roller cam block.
 
RAMM said:
There is only an off idle torque advantage--EVERYONE feels this in the seat of the pants and translates this into HORSEPOWER which equals SPEED-IN THEIR MINDS. It does not necessarily translate into a car that IS FAST. I've wasted too much breath on this already but...... A 4" arm does not make good high rpm power UNLESS --GOOD (W2,W-series, Indy etc...) heads are executed. Strokers also do not "eat up cam duration" <<< this is a MYTH. Strokers NEED more cam because they are usually under-cylinder headed and need every chance they can get to fill the cylinders and this is in the form of keeping the valves open longer which is expressed as cam duration. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am not a fan of strokers. They typically do not RPM well or willingly, they do have more internal friction, they do stress the main caps more, rods more-due to piston speed and G-force, I could go on and on. However they do make a boat load more torque which to me equals tire smoke more often than not. A 4" arm in a Small Mopar is akin to a roots blower, some just want it because they gotta have it and I understand that, its a bragging rights thing. They are popular because they are easy. Making real power up to and past 7000 rpm is actually really difficult-but that sound and feeling when the engine is just getting into its sweet spot and pulling really hard @ 5000-5500 rpm is where its at for me. Most strokers are done by 5500 rpm--F@#$ strokers. LOL J.Rob

p.s. I know who is going to pile on about these comments and yes I understand that you BELIEVE that your strokers are revvers and making tons of power way on the far side of the tach. I believe that you believe OK?
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Ok, so I know running in stock appearing classes is NOT mainstream and doesn’t translates to much of anything,but stock stroke engines don’t exist really in the class. As for sb mopars they shake out to average about 430 ci. Mine is 410 and pulls to 6500 rpm with just the divider cut down on the stock intake. The heads are almost a full effort x’s. So how would a stock stroke effort be better? Sure you can zing one to the moon with the right intake and headers, but the intake can create hood clearance issues, been there done that, and everyone just loves header leaks. I mean for the average joe, other than the bragging rights to saying I shift at 7000 rpm what real benefit is there? It is a serious question though. I believe my intake and exhaust requirements limit my max rpm so I need the stroke. Reading your post I get a couple of issues you have with strokers. Reliability? I have seen no reliabilty issues at all with over 55,000 miles and 700+ passes. They don’t rpm/not enough head flow. Ok but the vast majority aren’t pushing for that final couple of hp and with increase in rpm comes increase in maintenance. Also a good to serious port job would probably flow enough to support a stroker to a reasonable rpm. 6500? Finally can’t hook the tire, well isn’t that really the problem we are all trying to solve? How would you build a stock stroke motor using stock castings? More hp less torque would make it easier to launch!
 
SwedishViking said:
Is that the only advantage?
How much lift does these block handel with roller cams before bleeding?
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That’s almost impossible to say because of lifter bore wear. If you would see the oil bypassing my sons LA block 360 with a small 600 lift roller cam you would shake your head just like I did. I tried 3 different brands of lifters and it didn’t matter. I’m tubing everything now after fighting that issue. I want my oil going we’re it’s supposed to go.
 
It doesn't take much of a stock-stroke 360 to smoke the fattest street tires you can fit in the stock tubs,of your big-tubbed street Duster/Demon/Barracuda, all the way thru first gear, and with the right rear gears, all the way to 60 mph. What advantage does a stroker have over this?
But I made a mistake earlier;
I do see one clear advantage for big strokers, namely; you can run a lot smaller rear gear, if fuel-mileage is a concern. Say 2.94s or less.
And a lil less clear, is you can run a much smaller TC, if you care to. The TC alone takes a big bite out of the cost of the stroker kit.
Between those two, you can build your combo to use just one gear,say 2.94s, on the run to 60, trapping at ~5650.
So there is that........ Plus you can tow anything,lol
 
Big torque may not always be a good thing in a light A body...but those 408's would be a good fit in a heavier B body and ideal for trucks!
 
To be honest, I'd say build a 318 or 340. Much more like what you want. The 360 just isn't that type of engine. It never was. And the 4" engines take the 360 intent much further.
 
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