273 time to 'fish or cut bait'...

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Joe,

Thanks, I'm a rookie and expect to get my *** handed to me often. I sent the heads in to ensure they weren't cracked, though I believe that's not often with old 273's because they are iron or cast or something... Anyway wanted to make sure that they weren't broke before I started building... Thought if they were ok I could at least use them on Cuda#1. Am I the only one who thinks he should have two 'Cudas?? (I do have two boy's so... why not, it may be Canadian but it's still a Cuda).

Seriously, I did buy the book, it just ain't here yet... They say "All roads lead to Rome", I don't want to piss my money away but, bottom line is I'm having fun and learning new skills in my retirement. My wife will spend the money if I don't anyway...

I had thought I'd use the 'Commando' cam, but haven't found out exactly what that is... Then thought a high performance, but seems those are mission specific. So I am lost on what cam and I hear cam dictates valves... which is the point behind my post.

There are so many rules that I can't even begin to comprehend someone posted that your carb is specific to whether your running an automatic or a manual! That is crazy talk to my uneducated brain! I thought that the carb provided air and fuel to the cylinders what the F does it care if the transmission is an automatic??? There is a lot for me to learn, and I believe that FABO is the place to learn it...

As I mentioned I just want to burn rubber at the F***ing stop signs/lights and run 60-80mph all day on pump gas, passing chevy's is simply a plus... What ever cam that might take, so be it...

Sorry for the rambling, Thanks for the advice. Believe me I could not do this without the support of you and FABO.

65Cudafix
For your stated goals, a Magnum 360 (5.9) or 5.2 (318)is worth thinking about. #1; you would have a Big motor for torque, and modern heads that make more torque than others with equal prep, save for some later la heads.
#2 You will have a roller cam motor that will not require special high zinc oil to live.
#3; a used 5.2 or 5.9 magnum in great shape that may not even need a rebuild can be found if you shop carefully.
#4 you can dress the front of the magnum engine with the 273 timing cover and water pump, etc and use new Engine Quest replacement magnum heads with the older carb manifold bolt holes in them, giving you a real sleeper in sheep's clothing. Another option is to use a Cross wind intake manifold for magnum heads, if the stock heads are good.
The main thing with this plan is a very mild cam choice; reground stock cam to keep max low end torque and work with the not so good exhaust manifold choices available. Use that Thermoquad pattern intake manifold and a rebuilt TQ carb, (some 360 motors came with Quadrajets too!) and you will have an extremely responsive package that will meet your goals at a decent cost.
If you go this route, a couple of things to know; you need a cam extension from Hughes Engines to allow use of a stock mechanical fuel pump.
You will need the right damper and flex plate or flywheel balance, as 5.9 magnums are unique,but it isn't tough to accomplish this.
 
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All 64-67 273's had solid lifters and adjustable rockers.
This is where I admit I get confused... my '65 FSM shows an illustration of the 273 rockers and they are stamped..... that is why I have to wonder if the heads/rockers have been swapped at some point. A lot of this has gone on and with the changed manifold, who know what you have?

OP, if you continue with the 273, knowing what heads you have is needed to plan out the right pistons. So get that casting PN and we can all work with better info on what you have. OK on the rationale on the heads begin worked on. If you want a 'standard' engine and then a 'hot rod' engine, that makes sense as long as the money lasts LOL

And I disagree with the idea of using 2 BBL 273 pitons; the EGGE 4 BBL pistons will barely get you to a true 9:1 static CR with the right heads. The 2 BBL pistons will actually end up at a 8:1 or less. The OP wants lots of good torque for his use... .which points to higher CR and more cubes.
 
This is where I admit I get confused... my '65 FSM shows an illustration of the 273 rockers and they are stamped..... that is why I have to wonder if the heads/rockers have been swapped at some point. A lot of this has gone on and with the changed manifold, who know what you have?

OP, if you continue with the 273, knowing what heads you have is needed to plan out the right pistons.

And I disagree with the idea of using 2 BBL 273 pitons; the EGGE 4 BBL pistons will barely get you to a true 9:1 static CR with the right heads. The 2 BBL pistons will actually end up at a 8:1 or less. The OP wants lots of good torque for his use... .which points to higher CR and more cubes.

I wonder what's going on there. All 64-7 273's had solid lifter cams. The hydraulics didn't come out until 68 when the LA 318 was released and the 273 followed suit. The 273 was dropped in 69. I think the 4 barrel pistons and the increase in compression is one more thing on the list to make the 273 run even better. The compression, slightly bigger cam, 4 barrel carb, the dual point (to a lesser degree) and the HP exhaust all worked as a team to make the 235 hp that Mopar advertised. If you have to bore the block, why not use the higher compression pistons? The difference between 8:1 and 9.5:1 is a sizable difference.
 
s I mentioned I just want to burn rubber at the F***ing stop signs/lights and run 60-80mph all day on pump gas, passing chevy's is simply a plus... What ever cam that might take, so be it...
That's gonna be a bit of a problem.
To make power will require rpm.
To multiply it for burning rubber is gonna take a performance gear.
To still cruise the hiway at 80 is gonna take more gears.
There is no fuel economy in this combo; zero..

Those Egge pistons cost nearly double compared to KB107s for a 360.
Putting a performance gear into a 7.25 and a SureGrip is more money.
At least you have a 4-speed, and with any luck it has the 3.09 low gear in it.
To get to 65 quick is gonna take 3.55s and second gear with maybe 82" tires(26.1 tall). The math says 5675rpm. So that is a pretty big cam for a 273.
The 3.55x3.09=10.97 starter gear, which is a good number. But the big cam in the little 273 is not gonna make any decent torque, so this is gonna take some revving to blast off. This gets old in a hurry.
At the other end 3.55s with those 82s will cruise at about 3000(65), and about 3660(80). This too will get old in a hurry. And you will have to plan your trips around where the next filling station is.

So,with the 273, to cover your bases you need ;
Hi-compression, moderately small cam, hi-flo heads, headers and a free-flowing exhaust,a 4bbl, 3.73/3.91gears, a SureGrip,hi-traction tires, and a 5-SPEED.

Or with a 360,you need
Any old junkyard dog running engine. Any old rear gear with a 3.23 or smaller gear, the SG and free-flowing exhaust.
do the math; you will be Waaay bucks ahead with the 360.

A lowC-360 with a 4bbl starts off at least 75 hp more than a lowC-273 with a 4bbl. This is about IDK 6 or 7 cam sizes for the 273 to match, and when it finally makes 265hp you will have spent a Bazzilion dollars and now you have to rev it to maybe 4000 to blast off, with the torque that the 360 makes at maybe 2400rpm. So the 273is gonna need TM help (Torque Multiplication) to the tune of 30 or 40% more. That is to say to match the power that the 360 puts down onto the pavement with a 2.76 rear gear, the 273 is gonna need 3.73/ 3.91s
The 360 is gonna cruise 65 at about 2300 with those 2.76s and 82s, as compared to the 273 at over 3100 with 3.73s and 82s. The 5speed, to get the Rs down to 2300 will cost you what? maybe $4500 or more after installation.

So let's see; one rebuilt 273 with Egge domes,ported heads, plus the 5-speed, plus 3.91s and headers and free-flo exhaust; VS
One running Magnum (just a timing chain),Your A833,your rear gears, a SureGrip, Trebleg log manifolds and free-flo exhaust.
I'll guess you can save $7500 using a used 360Magnum.
And what do you get with that savings? Maybe 275 hp,mega torque, plenty of MPgs, smooth,quiet,vibration-free 80mph all day with no overheats,a longer lasting engine, and best-of-all enough power that even 2.76s will show a lot of chebbys what your tail-lights look like.
And here's what else you get; potential. The 273 is getting close to the top of its street-game to make 265hp, whereas a 265hp360 ain't even breathing hard. Building it up to the same level as that 273 will probably get you close to 400hp and still no 5-speed required.........'course fuel economy is now a distant memory.
Honestly, with your stated goals, I wouldn't entertain anything but a 360. Even a low-C 360, and a Magnum is preferred.
Well a turbocharged 318 would be my second choice,lol.
 
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I wonder what's going on there. All 64-7 273's had solid lifter cams. The hydraulics didn't come out until 68 when the LA 318 was released and the 273 followed suit. The 273 was dropped in 69. I think the 4 barrel pistons and the increase in compression is one more thing on the list to make the 273 run even better. The compression, slightly bigger cam, 4 barrel carb, the dual point (to a lesser degree) and the HP exhaust all worked as a team to make the 235 hp that Mopar advertised. If you have to bore the block, why not use the higher compression pistons? The difference between 8:1 and 9.5:1 is a sizable difference.

Toolmanmike, Just visited the machinist who has my heads. I really don't like the guy much, but he's the only guy in this zip code that does what he does... anyway here are what he and I believe are the numbers . Looks like 2465315 - 1 & 2..

I after reviewing your 273 build thread again I've decided to go with the Izzy's cam like you did, since it will work with my (adjustable) rockers and stock valves... Let me know what you think about the parts numbers..

65Cudafix
 
Toolmanmike & all,

I looked up the part number on my phone and got a link to a prior thread here on FABO and the guy said that the only difference between Commando heads and regular head is the valve springs? If this is true, I suppose that I want to make sure that I get the Commando springs., what ( & where) specifically do I find these? My machinist just calls the NAPA guy (I suppose, have I mentioned that I don't really like him?). It's time to get these parts on order, and installed.

Thanks,
65Cudafix
 
If he goes with with 360 or even a hp 318 will his rear hold up. I could not find what rear he has didn't they come with 7 1/4 or 8 1/4. I know an 8 1/4 will hold up. So like before what was stated look at the whole picture of what you want what you can afford and how long you want to be working on it to drive it.
 
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Toolmanmike, Just visited the machinist who has my heads. I really don't like the guy much, but he's the only guy in this zip code that does what he does... anyway here are what he and I believe are the numbers . Looks like 2465315 - 1 & 2..

I after reviewing your 273 build thread again I've decided to go with the Izzy's cam like you did, since it will work with my (adjustable) rockers and stock valves... Let me know what you think about the parts numbers..

65Cudafix
The part numbers tell me they are a 64-65 273 head with 1.78 and 1.50 valves. it looks. It looks like the date is 4-21-64. I would have to get into my parts book to see if there is a difference in valve springs.
I am not a fan if the double springs that Isky recommends. I (and many on here) would recommend Comp Cams 901's. They are a perfect replacement and slight upgrade for stock springs. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-901-16
 
901 springs. Are 87.5 lb @ 1.700 in closed and 227.75 lb @ 1.275 in open. A .06 spring shim will add 19.8 lb to each position. Plenty good for an E-4 Isky cam. You have closed chamber heads, I stand by my recommendation of 2 barrel pistons unless you are boring the block. 273 2 barrel pistons are only .020 in the hole. Now is the time to measure with the heads off. The springs are the only difference in Commando heads. I have new valves, let me know and I can cut you a deal. Use the good Viton valve seals while you are at it. There are sound bites of the E-4 cam, both mine and Mike's.
 
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Thanks for the head PN OP! Good for you: you got the higher CR ones.

The Egge L2221 2BBL pistons are .041 in the hole, not .020" in the hole. (Compression height is 1.781".) With a .039" thick head gaskets, guessing at 60 cc's on the chambers (No, they won't be 57 cc unless milled and 60 may be on the small side), and 6 cc valve reliefs, the static CR will be around 7.9. That is not going to be torquey at all and add that to a small displacement, you would need to go with higher gears.

At least with the E4 cam, and the 2 BBL pistons, the DCR will be around 7.0. But that is not all that good with the small displacement and shorter stroke.

IMHO, time for the L2222 higher compression pistons; at least there is a fighting chance to be at a true 9:1 static CR. The DCR with the E-4 will now be up near 8:1 which is as far as I would like with iron heads. Ignition timing will not need to be so aggressive.
 
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[QUOTE="66fs, There are sound bites of the E-4 cam, both mine and Tims.[/QUOTE] Me too!

 
Thanks for the head PN OP! Good for you: you got the higher CR ones.



IMHO, time for the L2222 higher compression pistons; at least there is a fighting chance to be at a true 9:1 static compression.
I shaved .030 off the heads and ended up with 9.6:1 static compression.
 
If he goes with with 360 or even a hp 318 will his rear hold up. "

Loganscuda,

The Commando Cuda has an 8.75 rear. Potential problem with Cuda#1 since it has 7.25 rear and I have a lead on a 318, but that's future 65Cudafix's problem

65Cudafix
 

Sorry Mike I was thinking of you. I was in a hurry to get out the door.[/QUOTE]
No worries. I too have a huge problem remembering what happens here. It's a big place with lots of members.
 
well I ve had 17 of them 1 left but its a rocket . I have a 66 273 engine sitting under my workbench with the 904 still married
I am willing to sell the complete drive train750.00 / 600 motor and trans but the rear end came out of a 3 speed car 65 cuda , yes it should have rockers with square pads on them rather than a roller , and if you do build with those rockers get the lock nuts for them there $5.00. or I could sell you my new engine for under 6k its a 71 360 but I would like to put a magnum roller408 engine in. the 360 is very quick . but I do luv your taste in cars , I think there the nicest ever made luv to spend 50 k on modernizing 1 it took 5 64/65s to make this 1 there just getting to rare to find good parts or even find 1 period and I just don't like the 66 grill or front end but I fell in love with mine in 1979 that little 273 camando was pretty quick yet.pm me your telly if interested . my new motor eats camero"s and new Super Bee:s and little mustangs but hates hyways and interstates its 35 mph or WFO

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I shaved .030 off the heads and ended up with 9.6:1 static compression.
Higher compression is the way to go IMHO, for what the OP wants to to: stop-light to stop-light demolishing of the competition and then highway cruising without too much fuss. I was thinking of head shaving but did not want to complicate his life.

What head gasket did you use? That might be good info for the OP.
 
Higher compression is the way to go IMHO, for what the OP wants to to: stop-light to stop-light demolishing of the competition and then highway cruising without too much fuss. I was thinking of head shaving but did not want to complicate his life.

What head gasket did you use? That might be good info for the OP.
Dang, I knew someone would ask.
 
Tnx; yes that thinner gasket helps CR. OP, take note!

They are still showing up as in stock at Jegs and PitStop USA.
 
FABO,

So here we are months later and the saga continues...

In my search for how to build a "273" for my '65 Commando, that didn't have an engine, I've decided to go with an Isky E4 Cam, 901 springs, 'stock' Commando pistons (Thanks SSVDP) and stock valves. But during my search for parts, a generous fellow member offered me a '65 Commando intake' which I can use on my OTHER 65 Barracuda (Thanks 66fs).

So now I have a couple more questions... For instance:

Which carb should I use for my 273 with the Isky cam, 901 springs, Commando pistons and 340 intake? Which carb for the stock 273 that I will put the 'Commando' intake on? And, what Carb should I use if I should decide to use the Commando intake on the first engine instead of the 340 intake, would it even matter?? I think it would be cool to have an old Carter 'AFB' rebuilt with Daytona Parts but as we all know so well, I don't know ****...

Also, I'm toying with the idea of going with an ECU on one or both, is that a thread for a different forum? In addition to the ECU I believe that I'll need a new distributer, am I limited as to what type if get if I go the ECU. I believe that I would want a vintage dual points distributer set up for the electronic ignition, suppose that's a different forum as well...

I also think I want a dual timing chain, my new best friend Rockauto has a cloyes double roller chain set for $40 is that all I need?

Thanks for any advise you can offer FABO, your the best.

65Cudafix
 
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