My 360 build.

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My recommendation for the aluminum heads has nothing to do with track times.
It has everything to do with running an easy to build 10.8 to 11/1 engine, that will kill bigger engines while running a smaller cam and a smaller TC and a smaller carb, and getting more mpgs while doing it.
And the biggest deal of all is that A500.
The ratios are 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69od.. The splits are .56-.65-.69.
That means on the 1-2 shift, the Rs fall to .56 x whatever, and on the 2-3 the Rs fall to .65 x whatever. A streeter doesn't care about the 2-3 cuz that ain't happening under power before 65 mph. But the 1-2 shift is back and forth all day long ......... With the wrong rear gear, you will be constantly hunting for TM. And with iron heads,and a big cam, you will be sticking a 3500TC in there right away because the thing is so sucked out. Course you won't know it's sucked out cuz you've never had 190psi.......
But why will it be sucked out? Two reasons,
first) the steenking 1-2 split is 56% . That means in traffic when the trans auto shifts at 2800/18mph with 4.30s, the Rs fall back to near stall. And then with the mediocre iron cylinder pressure and say the typical 268/110 cam,The soggy bottom end says screw this, I'm on vacation. So you press harder and harder on the gas pedal to keep up with traffic. And you wonder why you're only getting 8mpgs. This is a really big disappointment after you just spent $4000 smackers on your iron-headed 268 cammed beast with an Scr of 9.3. But it gets worse.
How about when you're getting on it? With 4.30s still, you will be topping first out at say 5800 or 38mph..... and the Rs fall to 3250. Does your 268 cammed iron-headed 155psi-engine ... got torque at 3250? Not much. So now you lean back, and wait for the power to arrive. And wait.and wait.
This trans was never designed for this application, so you have to figure out a way to keep your engine happy from 3250 to 5800. That's a mighty wide powerband of 2550. By comparison a regular 4-speed has a 1-2 requirement of 4200 to 5800 or just 1600.Ok so that is reason one.

second) The same short block with pistons down at .011, and 340 iron heads, will make about 9.35Scr, and that will get you about 153psi/135VP, with that 268 cam. Compare that with 183@161VP with 63cc aluminums or with 190/168VP with 58cc aluminums.183 runs on 87E10. 190 did also in my 367.
Now if you were running a 3000plus TC, you wouldn't much care about VP. But you would still care about 153psi versus 183/190. These are near and over 20% more pressure. More pressure means more power, but more importantly, more mpgs in steady state cruising and more mpgs around town..... cuz you can run on the leaned-out low-rpm circuit, more of the time.

The only way to run hi-pressure is with the aluminum heads. It matters not what brand you buy, as long as your final cylinder pressure is over 185 with your chosen cam. Or conversely; if you have 10.8Scr, stick with about a 60*ICA. Any cam with an ICA of about 60* will make the pressure. And to cover the 2550 powerband, the 110s ain't the best answer. Unfortunately, to go to a wider LSA costs duration, and power along with it. That means to get the duration back, you want a cam with shorter, faster acceleration ramps..... and that takes you to a Solid FT.

Now to say this science ain't worth $1500 bucks,IMO, just means you haven't tried it. I can tell you this; I will never go back to low-pressure for street performance. Especially when the powerband has to be 2550 rpm wide. You gotta have pressure to get you thru that briskly. 153psi on the street, is for....... the other guy.
To build an iron-headed 360 at 160/165 psi will, in the end, cost you more. A lot more. Firstly you will need a cam one size bigger, and then you will need to get the Scr up to 10.2. That's a total chamber size of 81.7cc, so something is gonna need to be machined,more money. And then that factory TC is gonna have to go. And now you are burning the most expensive gas you can find....... and a lot of it. And the power has moved up 200 rpm, and tightened up, such that you really gotta pay attention to get up on the pipe. And your 2550rpm powerband ain't ever gonna happen.

When you have a hi-pressure 360, you don't need a big TC or a lotta rear gear. The A500 just makes the 4.30s so much more fun, cuz you have that option. And the 4.30s make a small cam possible. And the small cam is just so much more fun, and makes for a car you can drive everywhere all the time, and so get your money's worth out of your investment before the quarters rot off again.

So I'm not trying to sell aluminum heads.
I'm trying to save you a lotta disappointment, and a shed full of parts paid for, that didn't work out.

Now if you had a 7-speed manual trans (my combo).... that would be a whole nuther story,lol.

And if it only goes high 12s, well you need a lil tuning that's all.And the first thing to do is whittle down the 2.2x 60fts,lol. At a P/W of 10/1 (3600 pounds 360 hp), you're looking at 107 mph and 12.9 as doable. Mine went 12.9@106 right out of the gate on street tires no tuning whatsoever.
But I bet you can build it closer to 380hp with the right parts.
Fork over the cash and never look back.
And you'll still be burning 87E10, and saving hundreds of dollars every summer.
 
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furrystump said:
Yes this is true, but don’t we all know how just getting to 12.99 turns into just getting to 11.99 and so on and so forth. Room to grow in some of these suggestions.
Click to expand...
and 11.99 into 10.99 :D I actually think Cley did a good job setting an E.T. that he'd be happy with, and I think it's a breeze (yawn) to get it there.
 
AJ/FormS said:
My recommendation for the aluminum heads has nothing to do with track times.
It has everything to do with running an easy to build 10.8 to 11/1 engine, that will kill bigger engines while running a smaller cam and a smaller TC and a smaller carb, and getting more mpgs while doing it.
And the biggest deal of all is that A500.
The ratios are 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69od.. The splits are .56-.65-.69.
That means on the 1-2 shift, the Rs fall to .56 x whatever, and on the 2-3 the Rs fall to .65 x whatever. A streeter doesn't care about the 2-3 cuz that ain't happening under power before 65 mph. But the 1-2 shift is back and forth all day long ......... With the wrong rear gear, you will be constantly hunting for TM. And with iron heads,and a big cam, you will be sticking a 3500TC in there right away because the thing is so sucked out. Course you won't know it's sucked out cuz you've never had 190psi.......
But why will it be sucked out? Two reasons,
first) the steenking 1-2 split is 56% . That means in traffic when the trans auto shifts at 2800/18mph with 4.30s, the Rs fall back to near stall. And then with the mediocre iron cylinder pressure and say the typical 268/110 cam,The soggy bottom end says screw this, I'm on vacation. So you press harder and harder on the gas pedal to keep up with traffic. And you wonder why you're only getting 8mpgs. This is a really big disappointment after you just spent $4000 smackers on your iron-headed 268 cammed beast with an Scr of 9.3. But it gets worse.
How about when you're getting on it? With 4.30s still, you will be topping first out at say 5800 or 38mph..... and the Rs fall to 3250. Does your 268 cammed iron-headed 155psi-engine ... got torque at 3250? Not much. So now you lean back, and wait for the power to arrive. And wait.and wait.
This trans was never designed for this application, so you have to figure out a way to keep your engine happy from 3250 to 5800. That's a mighty wide powerband of 2550. By comparison a regular 4-speed has a 1-2 requirement of 4200 to 5800 or just 1600.Ok so that is reason one.

second) The same short block with pistons down at .011, and 340 iron heads, will make about 9.35Scr, and that will get you about 153psi/135VP, with that 268 cam. Compare that with 183@161VP with 63cc aluminums or with 190/168VP with 58cc aluminums.183 runs on 87E10. 190 did also in my 367.
Now if you were running a 3000plus TC, you wouldn't much care about VP. But you would still care about 153psi versus 183/190. These are near and over 20% more pressure. More pressure means more power, but more importantly, more mpgs in steady state cruising and more mpgs around town..... cuz you can run on the leaned-out low-rpm circuit, more of the time.

The only way to run hi-pressure is with the aluminum heads. It matters not what brand you buy, as long as your final cylinder pressure is over 185 with your chosen cam. Or conversely; if you have 10.8Scr, stick with about a 60*ICA. Any cam with an ICA of about 60* will make the pressure. And to cover the 2550 powerband, the 110s ain't the best answer. Unfortunately, to go to a wider LSA costs duration, and power along with it. That means to get the duration back, you want a cam with shorter, faster acceleration ramps..... and that takes you to a Solid FT.

Now to say this science ain't worth $1500 bucks,IMO, just means you haven't tried it. I can tell you this; I will never go back to low-pressure for street performance. Especially when the powerband has to be 2550 rpm wide. You gotta have pressure to get you thru that briskly. 153psi on the street, is for....... the other guy.
To build an iron-headed 360 at 160/165 psi will, in the end, cost you more. A lot more. Firstly you will need a cam one size bigger, and then you will need to get the Scr up to 10.2. That's a total chamber size of 81.7cc, so something is gonna need to be machined,more money. And then that factory TC is gonna have to go. And now you are burning the most expensive gas you can find....... and a lot of it. And the power has moved up 200 rpm, and tightened up, such that you really gotta pay attention to get up on the pipe. And your 2550rpm powerband ain't ever gonna happen.

When you have a hi-pressure 360, you don't need a big TC or a lotta rear gear. The A500 just makes the 4.30s so much more fun, cuz you have that option. And the 4.30s make a small cam possible. And the small cam is just so much more fun, and makes for a car you can drive everywhere all the time, and so get your money's worth out of your investment before the quarters rot off again.

So I'm not trying to sell aluminum heads.
I'm trying to save you a lotta disappointment, and a shed full of parts paid for, that didn't work out.

Now if you had a 7-speed manual trans (my combo).... that would be a whole nuther story,lol.

And if it only goes high 12s, well you need a lil tuning that's all.And the first thing to do is whittle down the 2.2x 60fts,lol. At a P/W of 10/1 (3600 pounds 360 hp), you're looking at 107 mph and 12.9 as doable. Mine went 12.9@106 right out of the gate on street tires no tuning whatsoever.
But I bet you can build it closer to 380hp with the right parts.
Fork over the cash and never look back.
And you'll still be burning 87E10, and saving hundreds of dollars every summer.
Click to expand...
:D ...... Now wait, you don't have a car. Part of a deal a while back that you were to grenade it???? LOL..... :D
A/J is fun!
 
89on35s said:
My suspension is not drag race suspension at all. I have 1.03 torsion bars, front and rear sway bars, Bilstein RCD shocks, tubular UCAs all for the nice handling feel and I don’t want to give that up either. These are my goals for the car.
Click to expand...
That above is being missed IMHO... this is more of a road race type use, not drag race.
----> Meaning lots o' torque to the rear wheels in ALL gears 1-3 to use for torque steering... You HAVE to slip the rear when you want torque steering, which leads to high CR to get a lot of excess torque over what you would want for straight drag racing so that you still have good rear wheel torque in the high gears. Good idle, low RPM cruise, yet the breathing to wind it out to get those ET's or better.... all points to high CR to get the wide RPM range and good low RPM torque and good heads.

The high CR leads right to the AL heads... which have the of very good out-of-the box flow, significantly more than the stock iron heads. It all works together and the AL heads just moves you right along to each goal. And they are not all expensive anymore for what you get; I can recall when AL heads meant Brodix or Dart only...talk about $$!

That sets you up as AJ sez for smaller cams to keep the RPM range wide, etc. And the roller is the way to go if you are starting with clean sheet of paper and the budget; it just enhances the lift/duration ratio of the cam which just helps to widen the torque band, gets the fuel economy up, etc.
 
Wyrmrider said:
wants 2000 rpm cruze
looks like a freeway/ road/ mountains chassis- I like it
I have 27 inch tire 3:54 gear and OD works fine with 360 magnum
Click to expand...

I'd go 3.73 if I were you. That gives you 62mph @ 2000rpm.

If It were me I'd go 3.91 or 4.10's and reap the performance benefits and still have a really low cruise RPm.
 
Well I picked up the motor yesterday. He gave me a bunch of other misc parts cause all his cars have Gen 2 hemis. Very interesting guy to talk to. I had met him before but briefly. I now know why they call him Hemi Dave! Honestly the trip to his place was worth the money even if I left without the motor!

I'll get some measurements this afternoon but it looks good from what I could see.

Cley
 
20180615_104507.jpg
 
A guess... Silvolite 1273's. If you put one exactly at TDC, the piston top will be approximately .110" below an uncut LA deck... SCR would be low a bit over 8:1 with stock heads, etc. So the next clue to the puzzle is to measure the piston-to-deck height. (Being rebuilt and with a hot cam, who knows if the deck has been cut....)
 
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Measure at all four corners and write it down for future reference
If quality rebuilt all numbers should be the same
just use the dial calipers or digital where the pin is below to eliminate piston rock
 
The best measurement I can get says .010 below the deck. What can I tell from that? Approximately what kind of static CR can I expect with an Edelbrock aluminum head?

Cley.
 
Which Edelbrock Aluminum head
you want one WITHOUT recess like the stock LA Head - get the cc's post back
figure a .028 gasket and your .010 deck that will give you .038 quench which is pretty good
those pistons have no valve notches so no adjustment there
lots of compression calculators available
 
I just discovered the wonders of the Wallace Racing Calculators. I understand this is not exact and after it’s all cleaned up and reassembled, I’ll CC the bores at TDC to get an exact number. With the notch in each piston and the chamfered edges, those things will both lower CR some.

So here’s what I get.

Bore = 4.030
Stroke = 3.58
Chamber = 63cc (advertised by Edelbrock for the 360 closed chamber head)
Gasket = .041 (prepopulated in calculator)
Valve relief = .000 (Piston is truly flat with no valve reliefs. Likely restricting lift?)
Gasket Bore diameter = 4.060 (just a guess really. I guess if I get custom gaskets they will be 4.030)
Deck height = .010 (as measured)
Compression Ratio = 11.4
Deck height = .020 (worst case due to crap measuring tools)
Compression Ratio = 10.86

If I put this back together as is, I’m sure I can come up with a 10+ to 1 compression ratio. How essential are valve reliefs in the pistons?
Cley
 
good find and a
good question on the valve reliefs
What pistons?
too much deck clearance with that gasket and -20
use a .028 gasket _.020 deck clearance gives you .048 which is about max what you want for quench or .038 with your .010- you are in the ballpark
does not Edelbrock have several choices of cc's?
you want the larger of the closed chamber type- not the open chamber with the .100 recess LA stock style
 
I'm pretty sure they come in 63 and 65cc versions. I was assuming the 65cc ones were for the stock 340 pistons with the positive deck height. I'll look into it more.

Cley
 
stumblinhorse said:
@AJ/FormS I am afraid to run an 11:1 engine. Even with AL heads that just seems like you are asking for a problem. But what do I know!
Click to expand...
Since 1999,I've been running 11.3 maximum to 10.9 minimum, with pressure from 175 to 195. The engine was torn down annually,5 or 6 times in the early years for inspection. It now has over 125,000 miles on it. It has had thousands of 7000 rpm shifts and lots and lots of three gear runs. Plus probably hundreds of hours of low rpm work. I drove it harder than any other engine I ever had.
This one time I missed a shift. When I glanced at the tach, the needle was passing the 8...... on the way back down. I jammed it into gear and it was business as usual.
Did I mention the beast burns 85E10........ 100% of the time, with up to 34* power-timing?
I think I'm still on the same set of plugs. Yeah,pretty sure about that.
Jus saying
 
Just another piece to the puzzle, I believe they are Badger aluminum pistons. These are a discontinued brand. At least that's what they look like thanks to a for sale ad here on FABO. Are these any good?

Cley
 
89on35s said:
Just another piece to the puzzle, I believe they are Badger aluminum pistons. These are a discontinued brand. At least that's what they look like thanks to a for sale ad here on FABO. Are these any good?

Cley
Click to expand...

pistons? Can't find much info on them. (Corey_68)
"History:
Badger Pistons, LLC was formed with the acquisition of the piston manufacturing plant and the remaining piston inventory of Dynagear Corporation in February of 2003. Dynagear had manufactured Badger pistons since its acquisition of Manley-Badger in 1995 from Kolbenschmidt. Shortly after Dynagear acquired Ertel Manufacturing Company in 1998, all piston production was consolidated at the New Albany, Mississippi location.

In March of 2003, Badger Pistons also acquired Manley Valves from Dynagear.

Present:
Badger’s manufacturing facility is completely self-sufficient with on-site aluminum foundry and piston machining facilities. Our manufacturing process is highly automated with state-of-the-art equipment yet flexible enough to respond to customer needs. We, at Badger Pistons, realize that customer satisfaction is the key to the success of any business. Our goal at Badger Pistons is to supply our valued customers with pistons and valves of the highest quality at a reasonable price and to provide service second to none.
Future:

Continuous improvement, both in product and process, is vital in staying competitive in today’s global market. This, with the inevitable increase in customer satisfaction, is the primary tool we will utilize for expanding our share of the piston market. As the need arises, and we predict it will, we have ample room for expansion at our 35 acre site."

I hope they are good. I have 2 sets for 360s and 3 sets for 340s.
 
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I have used Badger pistons in the past. The pistons proved tough enough for me. The engine recieved a lot of kid abuse.
At the time, many a moon ago, I didn't see a hi performance section to there offerings.
I would have noissue in there use again.
 
If you think you have Badger's that will give you a deck height of .010", you need to do some checking. Unless, the blocked is decked a lot, then a standard 360 cast Badger piston will be down in the hole around .110" at TDC.

Do you have one of the old pistons out? Compare to the new ones to make sure your new piston height is the same.

And if you don't mind, please let me ask one thing: Are you sure a digit did not slip in post #41, where the deck height is .100", not .010"? Just want to be doubly sure.....'cuz it would be quite a disappointment.

Oh, and you asked about valve reliefs... if you need 'em, you NEED 'em LOL. Regardless if these pistons are .100" or .010" down, you're gonna need so very carefully check piston to valve clearance with the chosen cam. 'Carefully' means start out turning the engine by hand veeery slowly when you are set up....
 
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