The best stroker 408-416-426-435 combination in stock 68 340 block

-
[QUOTE="mbaird,]
But hi reving motors are expensive to setup and most people are buiding street strip cars . Who wants to run down the hiway with 4.88 gears?[/QUOTE]
High winding small blocks are fun. Driving the streets with 4.88’s and a big cam (260*[email protected]) isn’t much fun until it’s hammer time.

Been there done that.
 
And here I am in the middle of a W2 build that will probably rev out to around 7500...lol

Speaking of Pontiacs and beer....my brother in MN runs a 11.0 68 Bird (that does hook...) and he was telling me about making a run to get beer in between rounds (for later..) and when he got back to the strip his class was already staging. So he went straight to the lanes with a back seat full of beer !
Won that round and got a few comments on his payload.... Lol
 
The fellow that ran the 372 i describeb in an earlier post that ran 10.50 told me he shifted at 7800 rpm.
 
[QUOTE="mbaird,]
But hi reving motors are expensive to setup and most people are buiding street strip cars . Who wants to run down the hiway with 4.88 gears?
High winding small blocks are fun. Driving the streets with 4.88’s and a big cam (260*[email protected]) isn’t much fun until it’s hammer time.

Been there done that.[/QUOTE]


It depends on what you define as high RPM. I consider anything under 8000 a street engine. I know some guys who think 6000 is spinning the guts out of it.

With today's rockers and springs 7500 is nothing.
 
There's really only 4 things that are important:
1. The engine has to make the power physics says is needed to accelerate the weight to the speed you want it to go.
2. The rest of the driveline and suspension has to be compromised to deliver that power in a manner consistent with the type of acceleration needed.
3. The owner has to have the cash to make #1 and 2 happen.
4. Someone has to make sure everything works properly. Even matched parts can be screwed up on install and not work as expected.
 
All those motors i increased in size by stroking, and went faster, how did that happen? Simple. More hp, but about as important, more hp at a lower rpm with the same shift rpm. If you haven't seen a hp increase with stroking, something in the combo isn't right, probably starting with the cam. For instance you can't feed more cubes effectively with the same overlap duration.

Where does the more hp come from ?

Energy cant be created or distroyed but only transformed.

If you take a 400 big block and bore it out to 408 and compare it to a 408 small block.
Internet wisdom says the small block with the longer stroke is better. But it leave out the fact the big block piston has more surface area applying more force to the crank. Balancing it out.

Now in the case of a 360 vs 408. Both have the same piston size so the same force is being applied to the crank and the longer stroke will multiply and make more torque but its traded from rpm leaving the same out come "hp". Since there using similar top ends chamber efficiency and heat transfer will be about the same. We know strokers with bad rod ratios have eat up hp due to friction. And maybe gives back in another way. But I don't see how a stroker can pull hp out of thin air ?

Theres alway a give and take that balances it out, no free lunch.

Basically for street guy your adding stroke so you dont have to add gear.

And of course this is all combo dependent.
Cam, heads etc.. will act different with different bottom ends some times giving an advantage to one or the other or even a draw.

But theres no inherent power advantage with stroker engines.
 
So maybe we should trade these big cube Mopar pigs off for 14,000 rpm Civics....
Lol
 
YR, what would you call spinning it in street trim 30 years ago?

But theres no inherent power advantage with stroker engines

Didn’t he say a few posts ago that... ever mind....

EVERYBODY listen up, he is right, you loose power with strokers,
SO DONT BUILD STROKERS!!!!!
You’ll just go slower!
 
So maybe we should trade these big cube Mopar pigs off for 14,000 rpm Civics....
Lol
No no no, you must now build super destroked big bore engines.

4.125 bore x 1.0 stroke!

Ain’t that right 273!!!!!
 
Oh my god, lol

Rumble I dont know what your reading but its not me. Ive never said once that a stroker is gonna make less power. Ive only said in about 30 different ways they will make the same more or less combo dependent.

All ive tried to say to the OP if your like Yellow Rose then a stroker aint needed spin her higher and run some very deep gears.

If your one of those that gonna run 3.23 or 3.55 no matter what your combo calls for build its as big as you can. It would be hard to build an engine where 3.55 are over geared.

If your inbetween find a stroke and gears that work for you.
 
I use 4.56's and have since 1980. I made a ton of money off of fools who had no gear and couldn't leave. Hell, I taught a friend to drive his 70 Challenger. It was a 440 4 speed with a 4.10 Dana. He was a slow learner with shifting but he got to where he was good enough.

I came home on leave from the Army and we all ended up drinking at a park we used to hang at. A few beers and he got to running his mouth. Wanted me to go get my car. I said no
It couldn't be possible you didn't have the correct set up? Not enough gear? I see that all the time. Not enough converter? See that just as much. Junk shocks? Yep. Lower RPM and less gear makes it easier on shocks and suspension settings.

When the power glide craze hit, most guys went faster. Was the power glide better? Not likely. It's a physical impossibility that more gears are slower IF the engine is built for it and the chassis is tuned for it.

Remember when Pro Stock were running 4 speeds? I do. All the fence leaners and comic book reader said a 5 speed would be slower. They were wrong. I personally watched Bob Glidden testing a 5 speed. I can promise you 6 gears would be faster yet.

Just because you put more arm in an engine doesn't garantee better ETs.
Fi
I use 4.56's and have since 1980. I made a ton of money off of fools who had no gear and couldn't leave. Hell, I taught a friend to drive his 70 Challenger. It was a 440 4 speed with a 4.10 Dana. He was a slow learner with shifting but he got to where he was good enough.

I came home on leave from the Army and we all ended up drinking at a park we used to hang at. A few beers and he got to running his mouth. Wanted me to go get my car. I said not until you beat the car I came down here in...a 1970 Firebird with a 326 and a 2 bbl. The bet was a trunk full of beer to the winner.


Needless to say, that no HP Pontiac would hook in a car wash. I got out on him and he panicked. After he gathered it up it was too late.

We came back to the park with a trunk full of beer on ice.

The point is it ain't about horsepower all the time. It's about getting the system together.
I have a little back ground in making cars go fast . my 3000 lb dart goes 8.70s on radials, 8.80s on bias slicks, and has put six passes together within .003 in the 1/4.
One thing i have learned, is NON of us know a whole lot about what really makes an engine tic. It is such a complex subject, engineers study for years to basically start as an apprentice in an engine development lab. But we can see trends. I see that stock class racers can have a crank that is .015 longer than stock stroke. I would bet my last dollar every fast stocker out there takes advantage of it. Another trend is when you read about a large group of guys running the same head, and the bigger motors are by and large faster for the build, that says something. When you put that intel to use and it works, that says something. A lot depends on the capability of the head used. There may be a point where stroking makes Less power , but it is darned hard to reach.
In some cases it is impossible, like the heads on a 1970 Boss 302 motor. Bone stock ports with 302 cubes, a tunnelram and a roller cam wanted 9500+ rpm! You couldn't possibly build a big enough motor to use all of those heads capability.
 
YR, what would you call spinning it in street trim 30 years ago?



Didn’t he say a few posts ago that... ever mind....

EVERYBODY listen up, he is right, you loose power with strokers,
SO DONT BUILD STROKERS!!!!!
You’ll just go slower!


In 1981 I turned 6500 on my street stuff. The last cam I remember I personally used in my street car was an Isky 1012C that I shifted at 7400. That was about 1990.
 



So you want to compare NHRA stocker engine building to street engines? You want to compare a .015 stroke increase to a .250 or .500 or more stroke increase?

Two totally different birds.


Edit: for all who watched Street Outlaws last night you heard Shawn with the Murder Nova built a smaller engine for more RPM and power. While I understand it's not small block Chevy architecture, is still only 481 inches and that's small by today's standards.


He also could have used a 481X architecture and made even more power, and had a larger bore and shorter stroke with bigger bore spacing.
 
So based on what everyone said, the reasons I m going with the stroker is because when I built the current 340 I didn’t know what was doing when it came to picking the right parts.

The story of this engine goes like this:
I was daily driving it while and I was a senior in high school and I blew up the 273 that came in it. Retrofit roller cams were pretty new for SB Chrysler’s in early 2000s and I had bought a 68 340 core with steel crank and X heads from a friend. One year at Carlisle I found new TRW 10.5 forged pistons with rods for $200 at the swap meet and bought them. I wanted a roller motor because that was the sh*t when I was buying parts.

Being naive (aka a dumbass) I bought the bottom of the page roller cam Hughes made at the time. I hand ported the x heads and put 2.05 valves in it. Note my dad owns a shop and a machine shop (I was the machinist while I was in college) and he has been building a-body mopars all long time but they were all big blocks and hemis. So its not like I was completely clueless about porting, the machine work. And it was a pretty good running 340.

The cam required 200 psi of cylinder pressure to run right and my engine was only making 165-170. So I called Hughes and got them to design a different cam. I had bet with a Chevy owner who worked for my dad for that we would race before the of the season and not wanting to lose I ordered the new cam which had a tighter LSA which would help the motor build more cylinder pressure.

Then that same week I found a set of used closed chamber Edelbrock heads on Craigslist for a really good deal, so I decided that while I m going through the work to change cams I should bolt on aluminum heads. Both of these decisions are why I am where am I currently. To have proper piston-to-valve clearance with tighter LSA, I had to clearance the pistons. By cutting deeper valve reliefs in the pistons, and switching to aluminum heads I made my cylinder pressure problem worse. And I think the ported iron heads out flowed the Edelbrock’s.

Those TRW pistons were brand new, but they were an old design and the valve reliefs weren’t deep enough/in correct location, so I was going to have change pistons to get the right compression. And if I m going through the effort/cost to change pistons I might as well put a stroker crank in it.

So 5 years later I m finally doing it. I already have spent the money on expensive stuff like the Edelbrock heads, valvetrain and the 340 block, which has some good machine work done to it and has some trick oiling system modifications.

I thought about getting a 360 block, but I don’t want to do all the machine work again. And I know it doesn’t matter, but something about a 340 block in a 67-69 barracuda fast back feels right. Even if they didn’t come in my 67, the 340 in that body style feels good.

The car has a super expensive ATI 8 inch converter (think it’s 3800-4000 stall), a good 727 trans, 4.30 gears and Mickey Thompson 275s. I switched to manual brakes because it has low vacuum and a rough idle. And as the car sits now I feel like I m running it to its max.

My hope is with a stroker and the ported heads I can go faster, but change gears to a 4.10 and make it more driveable. I can go to different cam or my old one with they wider LSA if I want. I would like to put the A/C back on and reduce the rear gear so I can enjoy driving the car more instead of just going to track and back.

Sorry wrote a book, just wanted everyone to know why I m doing what I am doing. Live and learn, who hasn’t bought a cam to big at least once in their life?
 
273 & everybody else, please proceed to 9:50 in the video.
(I know which one I’d rather drive/race!)
 
273 & everybody else, please proceed to 9:50 in the video.
(I know which one I’d rather drive/race!)



I'd have to watch it from the beginning to see what they did, but the smaller engine would need a different cam, valve job and cam timing. If they didn't compensate for that, the test means nothing.
 
273 & everybody else, please proceed to 9:50 in the video.
(I know which one I’d rather drive/race!)


Yes 9hp difference thats basically the same.
Its all combo dependent. Some parts are gonna favor different rod ratios etc..


And yes of course the 408 made more torque, everyone already knows it would.

But the 360 made more lbs-ft per cid than the 408 meaning the 360 makes more under the hp curve. If geared proper that would be faster than the 408 cause that.

Plus the 408 had to rev amost to the same hp & torque peaks as 360 showing in this case the 408 with these parts it was less efficient. Should of been 800 rpm lower than the 360.

If the 408 has to rev almost the same to basically make the same hp whats the point?

But im still not knocking building a stroker. And havent since the begining. I really dont know why your saying I am.
 
So based on what everyone said, the reasons I m going with the stroker is because when I built the current 340 I didn’t know what was doing when it came to picking the right parts.

The story of this engine goes like this:
I was daily driving it while and I was a senior in high school and I blew up the 273 that came in it. Retrofit roller cams were pretty new for SB Chrysler’s in early 2000s and I had bought a 68 340 core with steel crank and X heads from a friend. One year at Carlisle I found new TRW 10.5 forged pistons with rods for $200 at the swap meet and bought them. I wanted a roller motor because that was the sh*t when I was buying parts.

Being naive (aka a dumbass) I bought the bottom of the page roller cam Hughes made at the time. I hand ported the x heads and put 2.05 valves in it. Note my dad owns a shop and a machine shop (I was the machinist while I was in college) and he has been building a-body mopars all long time but they were all big blocks and hemis. So its not like I was completely clueless about porting, the machine work. And it was a pretty good running 340.

The cam required 200 psi of cylinder pressure to run right and my engine was only making 165-170. So I called Hughes and got them to design a different cam. I had bet with a Chevy owner who worked for my dad for that we would race before the of the season and not wanting to lose I ordered the new cam which had a tighter LSA which would help the motor build more cylinder pressure.

Then that same week I found a set of used closed chamber Edelbrock heads on Craigslist for a really good deal, so I decided that while I m going through the work to change cams I should bolt on aluminum heads. Both of these decisions are why I am where am I currently. To have proper piston-to-valve clearance with tighter LSA, I had to clearance the pistons. By cutting deeper valve reliefs in the pistons, and switching to aluminum heads I made my cylinder pressure problem worse. And I think the ported iron heads out flowed the Edelbrock’s.

Those TRW pistons were brand new, but they were an old design and the valve reliefs weren’t deep enough/in correct location, so I was going to have change pistons to get the right compression. And if I m going through the effort/cost to change pistons I might as well put a stroker crank in it.

So 5 years later I m finally doing it. I already have spent the money on expensive stuff like the Edelbrock heads, valvetrain and the 340 block, which has some good machine work done to it and has some trick oiling system modifications.

I thought about getting a 360 block, but I don’t want to do all the machine work again. And I know it doesn’t matter, but something about a 340 block in a 67-69 barracuda fast back feels right. Even if they didn’t come in my 67, the 340 in that body style feels good.

The car has a super expensive ATI 8 inch converter (think it’s 3800-4000 stall), a good 727 trans, 4.30 gears and Mickey Thompson 275s. I switched to manual brakes because it has low vacuum and a rough idle. And as the car sits now I feel like I m running it to its max.

My hope is with a stroker and the ported heads I can go faster, but change gears to a 4.10 and make it more driveable. I can go to different cam or my old one with they wider LSA if I want. I would like to put the A/C back on and reduce the rear gear so I can enjoy driving the car more instead of just going to track and back.

Sorry wrote a book, just wanted everyone to know why I m doing what I am doing. Live and learn, who hasn’t bought a cam to big at least once in their life?

Sorry for your thread getting all out of wack.

I dont think anyone thinks you dont know what your doing.

Im glad to see your not afraid of deep gears.

Ported heads and a step up to something in the 245 @ 0.050" or so, Id call for a custom cam. Should be a nice boost in performance.

And since you dont want to turn your engine any higher. Adding 4" crank probably keep your new power at the peak rpm you got now or less. And since your going faster turning the same rpm youll be able to run less gear.

I dont know if id go with more stroke. 416 is a proven combo. And the gain is only 10-20 cid.

Dont see why you wont hit your goals
 
Last edited:
What’s the point?

Ummmm, more torque equals more HP?
Or did I miss that?

You rambled on about how the stroker is so woefully inefficient that it is pointless to build one.

YR, both have the same cam and compression carb and intake & headers.
The test is not meaningless. It shows how everything else is the same except one has a 3.58 vs the 4.0 stroke.

There showed you what a stroker does as far as power output. There not doing rocker science dyno work. Just basic comparison work.
 
What’s the point?

Ummmm, more torque equals more HP?
Or did I miss that?

You rambled on about how the stroker is so woefully inefficient that it is pointless to build one.

YR, both have the same cam and compression carb and intake & headers.
The test is not meaningless. It shows how everything else is the same except one has a 3.58 vs the 4.0 stroke.

There showed you what a stroker does as far as power output. There not doing rocker science dyno work. Just basic comparison work.

If you pause on the two cuvres at 10:09
yes it looks bad for the 360, on the dyno the 408 wins but not necessarily in a car it does.

At 1st before I overly went over the dyno curves just by hearing the 360 made more lbs-ft per cid I figure the 360 had the clear advantage but looking at the hp curves more closely they are basically on par which Ive been say since this discussion started.

The 1st problem we read too much into the torque its really telling us nothing here its kind of misleading. Which I will show.

Look at the two hp curves thats the real story. Yes the 408 looks better. But think of it in a car. The 360 will or should have more gear since the hp curves are about 300 rpm apart the 360 gears need to turn about 300 rpm per mph more. Which probably be one step deeper gear wise.

So you cant compare the 360 and 408 at the same rpm since the 360 will always be turning about 300 rpm more you got compare the hp points 300 rpm apart.
So start at the 408 3000 rpm but disregard the first 3 points of the 360 and start with the forth at 3300 rpm. Thats both hp curves lined up.

So for the 408 at 3000 - 4000 rpm the 360 at 3300 - 4300 rpm the 360 actually does better where if you looked at the torque curve its saying worse thats why torque readings are misleading at best. And 408 at 4000 - 5000 rpm compared to the 360 at 4300 - 5300 are on par or slight advantage for the 408. The 408 at 5000 - 6000 rpm has the advantage over the 360 from 5300 - 6300 rpm. Doesn't show above 6000 rpm but looks like the 360 wont fall off as hard, more room for shifting. But we're not talking huge advantages just about 10 hp at each end so basically par.

That why Im alway saying torque curve dont matter. Cause its misleading it dont take in account of gearing and thats why gearing is important. If you ran 3.55 with both these engine the 408 would win. But if you stepped the 360 to 3.73 gear than be probably on par.
And yes you could run more gear in the 408 but if you took it to the optimal gear for both the 360 will be turning about 300 rpm higher.

Its actually funny cause the 360 has the advantage on bottom of each gear and the 408 on top opposite of what you would think.

So in this case is it worth stroking to be able to run one step less gear ?
 
Last edited:
PJ, after reading your last post, a few ideas come to mind . you have certain goals, like AC, and the ability to cruise more for fun. So writing down those goals and looking for ways to set up the motor for superior power yet tractability are the goal, right?
How about a vacuum pump and / or cannister to get back the power brakes? You have a great converter. You could have it tightened up and get enough stall with the stroker, and still run a 3.55 gear. A short tire at the track, and the actual ET loss will be minimal. The key here is you have an excelent converter that will keep you in the power band. An example; i was bracket racing a bb stroker with a 4.10 gear, 33 x 15 slicks, dialed 10.20 in the 1/4. I screwed up and left in 2nd gear, but still ran a 10.40! That is the equivelent of leaving in first gear with a 2.33 rear gear!
You have the roller cam i believe, so that helps a lot. There are ways to get this deal to work with the AC etc and still be a mid to low eleven second ride. With your background, i am betting on it.
 
If its hydraulic roller could use a set of Rhodes roller lifters to bring the vacuum up. Thats my plan for my engine. You might have to worry about CR if you do.
 
If its hydraulic roller could use a set of Rhodes roller lifters to bring the vacuum up. Thats my plan for my engine. You might have to worry about CR if you do.
How well would those lifters tolerate the loose lash effect?
 
Where does the more hp come from ?

Energy cant be created or distroyed but only transformed.

If you take a 400 big block and bore it out to 408 and compare it to a 408 small block.
Internet wisdom says the small block with the longer stroke is better. But it leave out the fact the big block piston has more surface area applying more force to the crank. Balancing it out.

Now in the case of a 360 vs 408. Both have the same piston size so the same force is being applied to the crank and the longer stroke will multiply and make more torque but its traded from rpm leaving the same out come "hp". Since there using similar top ends chamber efficiency and heat transfer will be about the same. We know strokers with bad rod ratios have eat up hp due to friction. And maybe gives back in another way. But I don't see how a stroker can pull hp out of thin air ?

Theres alway a give and take that balances it out, no free lunch.

Basically for street guy your adding stroke so you dont have to add gear.

And of course this is all combo dependent.
Cam, heads etc.. will act different with different bottom ends some times giving an advantage to one or the other or even a draw.

But theres no inherent power advantage with stroker engines.
But generally , MORE TORQUE ! Torque is what gets u moving. Also usually requires less gear.
 
-
Back
Top