Bolt in Harness Bar don't do it!!!

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I specialize in Motor Vehicle Accident Investigation and Reconstruction and I have been watching this post silently from the beginning trying to determine an educated decision on this. After looking at the design, it is not really going to matter which placement position you use, in a serious accident it will most likely have the same reaction caused from the given pivot points.
They way I see it is:
In a newer car (import or domestic), safety wise, it is definitely not better than a factory set up.
For an old Mopar with lap belts only, it is not a terrible idea. It is an upgrade over the stock lap belts as it gives you a little more support/safety as what you are looking for. Would I do it, probably not. I would save my money and put in a hoop with a crossbar that has the needed attachment points for a more permanent set up, but that is not an option for everybody.
It appears that you are defending it, looking to justify to yourself spending $169 on it. For more safety than your stock set up at safe driving speeds, yes, it is probably worth it. In a 12 second car, that is going to be raced and driven hard on the street, I would not do it.
Over all, it seems to fit the purpose you intendit to.
 
jrlegacy23 said:
I specialize in Motor Vehicle Accident Investigation and Reconstruction and I have been watching this post silently from the beginning trying to determine an educated decision on this. After looking at the design, it is not really going to matter which placement position you use, in a serious accident it will most likely have the same reaction caused from the given pivot points.
They way I see it is:
In a newer car (import or domestic), safety wise, it is definitely not better than a factory set up.
For an old Mopar with lap belts only, it is not a terrible idea. It is an upgrade over the stock lap belts as it gives you a little more support/safety as what you are looking for. Would I do it, probably not. I would save my money and put in a hoop with a crossbar that has the needed attachment points for a more permanent set up, but that is not an option for everybody.
It appears that you are defending it, looking to justify to yourself spending $169 on it. For more safety than your stock set up at safe driving speeds, yes, it is probably worth it. In a 12 second car, that is going to be raced and driven hard on the street, I would not do it.
Over all, it seems to fit the purpose you intendit to.
Click to expand...

JRLegacy you should read this article and reconsider...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/05/five-point-belts-will-paralyze-you-and-other-fun-safety-facts/

sorry about the ebay purchase. however, 4 or 5 point belts should never be used without a roll cage.
 
jrlegacy23 said:
I specialize in Motor Vehicle Accident Investigation and Reconstruction and I have been watching this post silently from the beginning trying to determine an educated decision on this. After looking at the design, it is not really going to matter which placement position you use, in a serious accident it will most likely have the same reaction caused from the given pivot points.
They way I see it is:
In a newer car (import or domestic), safety wise, it is definitely not better than a factory set up.
For an old Mopar with lap belts only, it is not a terrible idea. It is an upgrade over the stock lap belts as it gives you a little more support/safety as what you are looking for. Would I do it, probably not. I would save my money and put in a hoop with a crossbar that has the needed attachment points for a more permanent set up, but that is not an option for everybody.
It appears that you are defending it, looking to justify to yourself spending $169 on it. For more safety than your stock set up at safe driving speeds, yes, it is probably worth it. In a 12 second car, that is going to be raced and driven hard on the street, I would not do it.
Over all, it seems to fit the purpose you intendit to.
Click to expand...

If I ever decide to race my car I would do just that. But in a car that is rarely driven over 60mph. my safety restraints are much better than what I had.
 
moparlover said:
JRLegacy you should read this article and reconsider...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/05/five-point-belts-will-paralyze-you-and-other-fun-safety-facts/

sorry about the ebay purchase. however, 4 or 5 point belts should never be used without a roll cage.
Click to expand...


I read that article... ok so if I roll my car the roof will hit my head..... pretty sure this would happen no matter what seatbelt I have. I'm 6foot 3 my head is only a few inches from the roof anyway. I had to lower the seats so that my head didnt touch the head liner while I was driving. I see what you are saying but i think the real point to make is that cars are inherently dangerous and carful defensive driving is your best bet no matter the seat belt you choose.
 
moparlover said:
JRLegacy you should read this article and reconsider...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/05/five-point-belts-will-paralyze-you-and-other-fun-safety-facts/

sorry about the ebay purchase. however, 4 or 5 point belts should never be used without a roll cage.
Click to expand...

That article is similar to what I said with just more detail:

"In a newer car (import or domestic), safety wise, it is definitely not better than a factory set up.
For an old Mopar with lap belts only, it is not a terrible idea. It is an upgrade over the stock lap belts as it gives you a little more support/safety"
 
"There you have it.....Thank you"......kinda proves you are just looking for others to agree with you for your own justification......
 
I think it looks nice but I doubt if it would hold one person let alone two with no support going to the rear and mounted with Hyme joints to pivot on. Just a thought. But you could do as I stated in the 120 crash test Thread.
 
inkjunkie said:
"There you have it.....Thank you"......kinda proves you are just looking for others to agree with you for your own justification......
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Not true I agreed with sirdan who told me I put it in wrong i fixed the problem. I was always open to criticism if it was constructive. I am not open to just saying the bar is junk when no real reason has been given to prove it. Most of the posts were like, I dont like it...its gonna bend up, its gonna pivot, its going to kill you. If someone could prove with hard data that this harness bar is junk then out it comes.
 
If someone could prove with hard data that this harness bar is junk then out it comes.
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i'd rather see hard data that says it actually works before putting it in my car..
 
I too have been watching this since the first post. I will admit I am wrong on many occasions, but to me, this appears to be a purely cosmetic add on. Your first post had me concerned with the install as I felt it would just pull through in an impact. You changed that. My next concern was the bolts and hardware shearing under load, which later on you informed us were "cheese bolts" and you replaced those. Then I saw a picture of a bar that is bent due to what I will refer to as applied load. It failed drastically with that. You have angled it as correctly as it should be. You have upgraded the bolts, which should have come from the manufacturer that way. But there is nothing you can do to strengthen the actual bar, short of adding center structure to it, which involves re-engineering. I did google it and what I found was probably 90% of people had installed them wrong, tying the belts directly to the bar etc. You have avoided and changed most of what I feel are the common mistakes. But the bottom line for me is the almost unavoidable colapse that will occur should you end up in a collision that actually is bad enough to require a harness system. It "looks" kinda cool, but I would not install one as I feel it is a false sense of security. JMHO
 
Go ask an engineer or a race car fabricator. Oh wait, at least one of the responders that was not positive falls into at least one of those categories.

How about you ask the supplier for test data? I bet they don't have SQUAT!

Why ask a bunch of as you see it, know nothing doubters, who think it's a dangerous pile o'**** for proof of lack of fitness for application. My grandfather could walk in take a look at a mechanical design, say a front suspension on an Indy Car, and tell you if it it would work or was decent. The cad/cam said it was right, it wasn't. He fixed it and the car won the Indy 500 that year.

Like I said, even at 60mph (maybe less), you may be testing the limits of that POS if you ever hit something head on. I never build stuff for the lightest case, ALWAYS the worst case scenario... Unfortunately you can't foresee every situation, Cars poking through a catch fence for instance. Once you know, you make changes so it doesn't happen or reduce the chances of it occurring again. Just like most top level race cars are built. Look how that Focus folded up and how a Cup car looks after a 150 MPH head on. Build it stout because crap happens. I don't care what you think, that pic of the one bar bent to crap should be enough to tell you fitness for application.

Nothing is worse in motorsports than a product that provides a false sense of security.

"There's none so blind as those who will not see" Blind ignorance gets people killed, just watch "dumbest stuff on wheels" for the survivors!
 
crackedback said:
Why ask a bunch of as you see it, know nothing doubters, who think it's a dangerous pile o'**** for proof of lack of fitness for application.
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Well said Sir.....but makes me want to ask this.....if the OP knows so much why the hell did he ask "a bunch of know nothing doubters" about this????? :dontknow:
 
He knows how to close his eyes lock his knees and stiff arm the wheel. The passenger should know how to put his head between his legs and kiss his *** goodbye.
 
I did ask for advice and applied it. Just because you say it is junk doesn't mean that it is. Still haven't seen any proof that this bar is a POS. Like I said that wreck was a stupid kid with lead foot trying to impress his gf and got killed. the bar bent wow you could expect that to happen he exceeded the limit of the bar. The one in the picture also looks like a thinner tube. I respect your opinion. If you dont like the harness bar. then don't put one in your car. When I posted this thread I was looking for some pats on the back i admit but members posted there concerns and I applied there advice. It seems that the opinions to the contrary are based on personal preference. Mostly comparing the harness bar to a cage. and a street car to a race car. This car is not a race car and the harness bar is not a replacement or equavilent to a cage. what it is.. an alternative to lapbelts. I could have chosen to get a 3 point seatbelt I could have gotten new lap belts. Its my choice and my car. Thank you to those who helped me get this installed correctly. I do appreciate it. :glasses7:
 
Here's another opinion from another "know-nothing"-

I think the design looks horrible. There's a reason NHRA mandates rollbars and cages with certain bars in certain positions. Though I realize this isn't a racing application, I'd still take a page from the NHRA and do it right with a main hoop and back tubes and door bars, then attach the harness to the cross bar. If you build it right, there'll be plenty of room for back seat passengers.

That POS "harness holder" looks worthless to me. Sorry for being honest, but those are my two cents.
 
mowrycuda68 said:
Are you quoting me as saying you "know nothing" because I never said that.
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No, not at all. I'm quoting myself as a 'know-nothing' simply because I'm just a normal hot-rodder with no engineering experience. I build my stuff based on other peoples' training and R&D. It takes the guess work out of it.
 
I would think at this point that some here "agree to disagree". If it were me, I would ask the mods to lock/close this thread. We are on page 5 and Im surprised it hasnt blown up yet..LOL. No offense, as I said "agree to disagree"
 
Not seeing the arguement over the "pivot points" the bar in the crash pic shows all the mount points intact and nothing pivoted the bar bent thats all
 
Hey it's your car do what makes you happy. I sure the bar and harness are not DOT approved for street driven car. You should drive it over and show it too your insurance agent. I have a feeling he would cancel your insurance on the spot. Take it by the highway patrol station and ask their opinion. They might just give you a ticket. It's your car if it gives a warm fuzzy feeling no skin off my nose. Good luck. :burnout::burnout:
 
Here you want PROOF that thing is a pile o'****?

Straight from the auction with some VERY relevant issue in bold...

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Made of lightweight steel (LMAO - that's a good one!)

Length of harness bar (overall / adjustable hole-to-hole) = 50" / 47"-52.5"
Length of support rod (adjustable hole-to-hole) = 27.5"-28.5"
Weight of harness bar / support rod = 6 LBS / 3 LBS
Depth of harness bar (overall) = 13.5"
Diameter of harness bar (hollow) = 2.5"
Gauge of harness bar = Unknown
-------------------------------------------------------------------

The wall thickness of the tubing is UNKNOWN

Are you fricken kidding me!!!

Now taking the info from above we can roughly calculate some interesting tidbits about the item.

Let call the harness bar 2.5" diameter, 50" long. Additionally it has clevis slugs and other items welded to it. The info states that it is 6 pounds and the support rods are 3 pounds. The support rods are insignificant here so disregard. Lets allow the total weight of the bar to include the clevis plugs/tab because it benefits the thickness calculation which is counter to my claim that it's a pile of junk.

You can go to a metal supplier and get the weights for materials in all shapes and sizes. Some online suppliers have calculators. Here's a good one. http://www.onlinemetals.com/calculator.cfm

Using the 50", 2.5 diameter and inputting various wall thicknesses, a wall thickness of .060 comes up to a weight of 6.5 pounds. Keep in mind we included the clevis weight so the ACTUAL bar thickness is THINNER than the .060 input. If the bar running length is longer than 50", it makes the tubing THINNER.

Minimum roll bar tubing wall for NHRA using CM is .083. That thing isn't CM...

Nice muffler tubing harness!

Go chew on that for a while.
 
The diameter of the bar is not 2.5 inches. so let me post a pic of the actual measurement and come to a verdict. Thank you this is good.
 

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I would say 1.25. now how did you determine wall thickness? I would like to know. seems like its going to be higher than your first estmate.
 
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