Goals and advice needed

[FlamesAreWicked]

This is a bit of a loaded post since it’s not as simple as a single question and answer. While the stock 318 in my 68 Dart runs well I know investing the same amount of money in a mag 5.9 will yield much better results. My goals aren’t really achieving a specific horsepower number. I’d like enough power to maybe get my car in the 12.8-12.9 in the heat. I say that goal because in Louisiana, it’s warm/hot most of the year.

I found a couple of 5.9 magnum options locally. One at a U-pull it for $500 (including the price of them pulling it for me). It’s in a 2000 Durango 4wd. Miles are unknown. It looked pretty clean and the only concern was the oil cap was missing because of fear of water getting in it. Second option is one from a private seller close to where I live that’s also in a Durango. Supposedly it has 120k miles on it and an older couple owned it. The seller said that it was running and driving recently but he’s parting it out and the transmission has been sold out of it currently. He wants $350 for it and he’s gonna pull it.

With all that being said.. what kind of power will I need to be in that range of ET? I have a 4 speed and a 3.55 gear. Could I even get my 318 to do those sort of numbers without totally just setting money on fire?.. I know the stock 5.9 can get to mid 300hp relatively easy.. main thing would be reliable, fun to drive, and if it can bust off a high 12 in the 1320… I’d say mission accomplished..

The appeal of the 120k mile motor (if he’s not full of crap) that it’s still fresh enough to not need a full overhaul.. I know these engines can possibly last well beyond that miles wise.. machine shops locally are few and far between where I live..

Stuff like this can snowball fast and in the end, it would of been better to do XYZ instead..

I wish I could foot the bill for a blueprint 408 to drop in but..if I can achieve my goals much more affordably, I will.

Any advice is appreciated… I’ve never dug into the innards of an engine but I’m confident I’m capable should I need to. I know the heads are prone to crack and the cost of stock replacement heads aren’t quite as cheap as they used to be (like everything these day).. almost better off with promaxx heads or something if that’s the case

 

[273]

If looking to do 12's I'd go 360/5.9l but can be done with a 318.

Here's an article what it took to do high 12's (12.76/103mph) with a 318 and dyno results.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0311-318-engine-buildup-and-dyno-test

Test 1-Stock 318 with two-barrel carburetor, 1 5/8-inch Hedman headers, and 3-inch exhaust system with mufflers.Test 2-Rebuilt 318 with 9.8:1 compression ratio, pocket-ported 318 heads, 340 cast-iron intake manifold, 625-cfm AVS carburetor, and Giles Performance single-pattern camshaft.Test 3-Same as test 2, but with Giles Performance dual-pattern camshaft.Test 4-Same as test 3, with ported 360 heads.Test 5-Same as test 4, but with 360 cast-iron intake manifold and 750-cfm Thermo- Quad carb.

RPM	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5
	CBT	CHp	CBT	CHp	CBT	CHp	CBT	CHp	CBT	CHp
2500	305	145	326	155	347	165	360	171	364	173
2750	303	158	336	176	357	187	369	193	371	194
3000	297	170	338	193	364	208	373	213	377	215
3250	286	177	338	209	366	226	375	232	379	234
3500	277	184	233	222	365	243	273	249	378	252
3750	262	187	337	241	363	259	371	265	377	269
4000	246	187	343	261	369	281	378	288	385	293
4250	230	186	343	278	270	299	381	309	388	314
4500	214	184	340	292	365	313	380	326	388	333
4750	197	179	331	299	356	322	372	336	380	344
5000	180	171	376	301	341	324	362	345	371	353
5250	163	163	298	298	324	324	346	346	357	357
5500	146	153	279	293	306	321	330	345	339	355
5750	290	317	312	341	321	352
6000	271	310	295	337	302	345

CBT= Corrected brake torqueCHp= Corrected horsepowerHorsepower and torque corrected to 29.92 inches/Hg barometer, 60 degrees, with dry air.

To me looks like 5750 and 6000 rpm's are in the wrong boxes and should be moved over 5 spots.

 

[junkyardhero]

it's all dependent on machine work and what all needs to be replaced.

you're going to need about 325 wheel horsepower to crack 12's

you can build a 318 pretty easily that'll pump out 330~350 and not be in the: let's throw hundred dollar bills in a 5 gallon bucket and light them on fire category. add some dosh to get 400 and you're in the game.

the problem here is you will almost certainly need machine work and pistons to get some compression going and you'll need heads.

a 5.9 will make 350 practically falling out of bed, but don't delude yourself that they're not gonna need attention. the last of thems rolled off the line twenny years ago. yeah, that makes us all feel old.

so figure on minimum a hone, rings, bearings (especially cam bearings) and a flex plate as well as an oil pan. and then sorting out the heads. which, if you're spared by the graces of Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration you get away with cleaning up and a spring/keeper kit from hughes so you can run a high lift cam. or if not, there's about a smooth G to your operating costs.

i don't know what speed parts you've got, so i'm unsure of what you can port over betwixt the two but also keep in mind that magnum intakes (save for the hong kong phooey air gap) are EE-XX-PENSIVE.

if you wanna gamble, a set of **** hot heads with a big cam and appropriate induction gets you there on your stock 318 bottom end. back of the barroom napkin math says that probably splits the baby on a 5.9 build. and if you're not in a rush... used parts soften that blow.

@remytherat just did a 318=>5.9 in his 69 and he could probably tell you to the penny what the swap cost him.

 

[FlamesAreWicked]

I guess it doesn’t really matter what shape the rings and bearings are in for either engine.. a full tear down replacing all that will be needed.. I guess if was 20 years ago when the engines were plentiful and on the road regularly.. it would be different. Resurrecting a 25 year old engine is a waste without going through it all.. the ATK 408 short block for $2999 at Summit is tempting.. while it’s way more than the cost of the used engine but by the time ya get machine work done, new pistons to up the comp.. everything that goes with assembly.. doesn’t seem too terrible. I’ll do some more digging on machine shops within a reasonable driving distance. More HP would better but XXXhp numbers aren’t really a thing for me.. just whatever it takes to get its performance in that ET range… make muscle car noises, and smiles per gallon is the goal..

 

[273]

If your flexable about the performance and the 318 is in the car running, do a basic 4bbl cam and headers, maybe even a head swap down the road, after a while pick up one of those 408's swap the top end over, everything doesn't need to be done at once.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I cracked a 12.9/106 quarter with a modest 360 @3650 pounds, 3.55 gears on street tires, with a 4speed ........ and thru the full-length 3" TTI-duals.
The Wallace calculator says 357hp.
Same engine, different carb and geared at 75=1850rpm went mid 20s mpg on the hiway and one trip made over 30mpgs.

Same engine one size bigger cam, went 93 in the Eighth @3457 pounds; 3.55s, open headers, and splitting gears with a GVod...... What a blast!
The Wallace calculator says 431hp.
This combo likes it's gas. But probably my fault cuz I bag-drive it, and cruise rpm is now up 40% for 65=2240.. versus 75=1850.

My 360LA is just a plain-jane Zero-deck 360 with OOTB Edelbrocks/1.6 arms, and a ancient 750DP on an AirGap.
The smaller cam was a Hughes HE 2430AL, 223/230/110 in at 11.3Scr
The bigger one is a ..... Hughes HE3038AL, 230/237/110 in at 10.95Scr
I liked the smaller cam better on the street, but it lost lobes when the oil manufacturers took out the zinc.
These are NOT my opinions, I already built and drove these combos for many years.

Here is my opinion;
Not a chance would I build a 318 for twelves,
unless it was a dedicated track-car, and I had gobs of money, or, the car it was going into didn't weigh nothing....

 

[273]

My Opinion of your opinion
Really, High 12's 318, makes it a dedicated race car in your books lol

 

[junkyardhero]

wow, some cam. 74hp difference.

 

[junkyardhero]

My Opinion of your opinion
Really, High 12's 318, makes it a dedicated race car in your books lol

yeah my "dedicated racecar" that ran 13 flat at 100 on street tires was a 69 barracuda with a 318 that got daily driven, made the sea to shining sea memorial trophy dash several times, trekked from the tip of baja to where the road ends in alaska and all points in between.

i ran it with drag radials once and knocked of a whopping .02 to bring home 12.98 so that's legit race car territory, friends.

just business as usual, AJ hating on 318's

 

[273]

yeah my "dedicated racecar" that ran 13 flat at 100 on street tires was a 69 barracuda with a 318 that got daily driven, made the sea to shining sea memorial trophy dash several times, trekked from the tip of baja to where the road ends in alaska and all points in between.

i ran it with drag radials once and knocked of a whopping .02 to bring home 12.98 so that's legit race car territory, friends.

Sounds exactly what the OP wants if he goes 318 route.

just business as usual, AJ hating on 318's

Seems like it's his life's mission.

 

[mderoy340]

This was my combo when I first put this car together. The 12 second combo thread is full of different ways to skin a cat. I'm in Florida and deal with a normally aspirated engine in the heat and humidity.

Post your 12 second small block combos

I feel pretty honored to join this thread, there are some great cars on here. It is been a goal for a long time, here is my recipe: 1969 Dart GT 3695 LBS with driver. 340, .020 over. Factory forged crank. Eagle H-beam rods. TRW forged pistons, (10.2 to 1 compression). Hughes Roller...

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[FlamesAreWicked]

If your flexable about the performance and the 318 is in the car running, do a basic 4bbl cam and headers, maybe even a head swap down the road, after a while pick up one of those 408's swap the top end over, everything doesn't need to be done at once.

I am.. on the street, if you’re in the ball park of high 12s - low 13s…it won’t be a huge difference in feel since it’ll be a ball of tire smoke with our crappy roads. Since we live in a world now that flat tappet cam failures are more and more common.. while expensive, converting to a roller cam has its appeal. With its not so great compression in stock form.. I dunno if I wanna spend an easy 1000-1200 for minimal improvement.

I have to keep tellin myself it doesn’t all need to be done at once.. just tough to overlook doing things twice. I have a edelbrock performer 318/360 low rise intake for it.. also picked up a Holley 670 from a close friend for cheap that’s barely been used. I think that with some Doug’s or TTI headers will give some decent “seat of the pants” gains. May just do those things and reevaluate.

I might just pick up that mag 5.9 for $350 and store in reserve.. that way I’ll have something I can work on slowly for the future. Rings, bearings, and pistons.. we’ll see.

I tell ya, as a kid, my circle of friends and I used to think mid 13s was fast lol… I still think it’s pretty quick.. if ya read old car magazine tests of the hay day of muscle cars.. all of the big guns we’re 13s-14s. Of course that was old tire technology and they didn’t typically use professional drivers.

Anyhow, appreciate all the advice.. progress on the car has been pretty good.. swapped to a 4spd last year. Most recent project was swapping to a 8 3/4 axle with SS leafs and new shocks. Next project is to put new front shoes, cylinders, hoses, and bearings. My plan was to have a good base to start on before diving into the engine. Still needs front bushings, tie rods, and all that jazz.

This 318 does rattle for a couple of seconds upon start up.. it’s a concern but, if it sits long enough, it’ll turn over enough before actually starting that the oil pressure is up and it doesn’t rattle. It’s valve train rattle.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

yeah my "dedicated racecar" that ran 13 flat at 100 on street tires was a 69 barracuda with a 318 that got daily driven, made the sea to shining sea memorial trophy dash several times, trekked from the tip of baja to where the road ends in alaska and all points in between.

i ran it with drag radials once and knocked of a whopping .02 to bring home 12.98 so that's legit race car territory, friends.

just business as usual, AJ hating on 318's

If you can’t put a 318 in the 12’s you aren’t much of an engine builder.

A 12 second 318 that would be a “dedicated” track car is borderline INSANE.

I just don’t get it.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Heads, whatever you build... it needs good heads.

318 with speed masters ,9.5 + pistons, solid cam in the 278-284 adv dur and specd for the heads in lift will do


Same in a 360 will do it too, easier.

 

[jeff alder]

For me it would be a no brainer. You already have a 318 that is a nice fit in your Dart. They will easily make the horsepower you are trying to obtain.

 

[junkyardhero]

If you can’t put a 318 in the 12’s you aren’t much of an engine builder.

A 12 second 318 that would be a “dedicated” track car is borderline INSANE.

I just don’t get it.

12.99 is still 12's baby, and it don't take much to get there.

dude's been drinking his kool-aid too much for too long.

 

[junkyardhero]

I am.. on the street, if you’re in the ball park of high 12s - low 13s…it won’t be a huge difference in feel since it’ll be a ball of tire smoke with our crappy roads. Since we live in a world now that flat tappet cam failures are more and more common.. while expensive, converting to a roller cam has its appeal. With its not so great compression in stock form.. I dunno if I wanna spend an easy 1000-1200 for minimal improvement.

the whole cam failures are wildly exaggerated. if it was such a problem we would be hearing about it on the regular, like somebody would be posting at least once a week. does it happen? yes. are there bad parts out there? absolutely! should that dissuade you from using a flat tappet? i don't think so.

I have to keep tellin myself it doesn’t all need to be done at once.. just tough to overlook doing things twice. I have a edelbrock performer 318/360 low rise intake for it.. also picked up a Holley 670 from a close friend for cheap that’s barely been used. I think that with some Doug’s or TTI headers will give some decent “seat of the pants” gains. May just do those things and reevaluate.

you have a pretty decent base to work with. performer and a 670 isn't a world beater, but those are perfectly cromulent parts to make a nice little hot rod. throw a set of dougs on there and splash the pot with some heads and you'll be cooking.

and the heads, they can port over to the next motor...

max low buck? sell the performer and pick up a hong kong phooey air gap and barter the 670 for something 750 and come out even stevens money wise and pick up a few ticks of performance.

I might just pick up that mag 5.9 for $350 and store in reserve.. that way I’ll have something I can work on slowly for the future. Rings, bearings, and pistons.. we’ll see.

i would totally scoop that for future shenanigans.

I tell ya, as a kid, my circle of friends and I used to think mid 13s was fast lol… I still think it’s pretty quick.. if ya read old car magazine tests of the hay day of muscle cars.. all of the big guns we’re 13s-14s. Of course that was old tire technology and they didn’t typically use professional drivers.

oh, here's the dirty secret: they DID use professional drivers! and... the cars were straight heaters!

but yeah, now soccer moms in minivans are clicking off 13's straight off the honda dealer's lot.

 

[mygasser]

a 4 barrel and headers/dual exhaust will improve things, a cam' will make the most of both..... and more.
neil.

 

[Mattax]

Car Life
'68 Barracuda 340 w/ 727 and 3.23:1 rear, E70-14s. 3840 lbs test wt.

That was probably a pretty honest best run for the test.

Nobody has mentioned gearing. Gearing is going to make a big difference when shooting for E.T in the quarter mile. Also need to think about that when looking at the torque and hp rpm for an engine being built.

 

[273]

Heads, whatever you build... it needs good heads.

318 with speed masters ,9.5 + pistons, solid cam in the 278-284 adv dur and specd for the heads in lift will do


Same in a 360 will do it too, easier.

100%

Especially if you want to be able to make the goal with a milder cam.

Don't know if you looked at the dyno results of post 2, going from ported 318 to ported 360 picked up torque in the whole dyno range even low as 2500 rpm (13 tq) which a lot would say shouldn't happen nevermind the overall 60+ tq from stock to final build at 2500 rpm. But yes I agree a similar 360 gonna have a lot more torque through out most of the 318 powerband except probably on top but then again the 318 should be running deeper gears.

 

[273]

Nobody has mentioned gearing.

Especially when we start comparing torque of the two engines 318 vs 360, Torque to the Ground is what matters now if your running the same gearing for both than the difference at the crank gonna be similar shaped curves at the ground but if the 318 is running a higher stall and deeper gearing like it probably should be the torque curves at the tire could be vary similar or at least closer to each other.

 

[FlamesAreWicked]

Thanks for all the pointers.. gives me something to think about… the stock 318 runs pretty good.. a lil smoke puff on start up which is probably valve stem seals… if I do intake, carb, and headers short term.. then maybe heads.. only down side to that is that I think even the smallest of chambers available will lower the current comp a touch more.. not dramatically but.. some. Maybe not enough to make a significant difference.. the next engine will get much more benefit from them obviously..

Who knows, the induction and exhaust may just be the ticket. I chose the low rise edelbrock intake because it was cheap used and I figured since the RPM range in stock from isn’t very high.. an air gap style wouldn’t give much benefit since they really help up top.. I figured by the time ya get to 5000 rpm anyhow, it’ll be out of breath …

 

[Scott_ 69HemiDart]

I'll just leave this right here..............................

 

[FlamesAreWicked]

I'll just leave this right here..............................

View attachment 1716405020

Hey hey.. you’re not helping

I was gonna get a bolt on scoop at the very least but.. a pin on hood would make working on it easier

 

[Scott_ 69HemiDart]

Hey hey.. you’re not helping

I was gonna get a bolt on scoop at the very least but.. a pin on hood would make working on it easier

Just here for morale support....................