Ok so lets really talk K-members here Folks

[needsaresto]

Enough talk of economics, its gay to do that on a car forum.


Lol!

 

[johnparts]

First of all, this is a free market system if the price of the alterkation was too high, mr reilly would be out of business, seems like he is doing ok, through a recesion, just saying.

Johns parts, you the consumer don't like what is going on, you think you can build a better mouse trap, for cheaper. Good, thats how the system works, just don't find out the hard way that is that price for a reason, all though I doubt it.

USCG Charger, what you spouted off where principles and not laws, do you know the difference college boy? That fact that you said you have a MBA is pompous and arbitrary, I bet you took Micro and Macro economics and thats it, if you tell me you understood them you are flat lying. You are not an economist and even if you were it wouldn't matter, economics is like politics and philosophy, no right answer just a ton of opinions on interpretation. ENOUGH TALK OF ECONOMICS, ITS GAY TO DO THAT ON A CAR FORUM. The market will decide if his price is too high.

But why all the fuss to get a tubular K member, I mean really, WTF? I don't know why some guys get caught up on thinking they need stuff that doesn't really matter. People successfully raced these cars with torsion bars, once again WTF? And dont ask the guy that bought one he is not going to admit how stupid of a purchase it was, he is 5 grand into the deal. Do you think there aren't days when he says," oh yea 5 grand it was totally worth it, my bills can wait". I mean if you got money to blow then do it, but for an average guy making average money, its just stupid.

That's my point if this was affordable more people could reap the benefits of having a more modern front end. When was the last timesomeone switched to leaf spring rears from a 4 link yet guy swap out their leaves for links everyday

 

[johnparts]

Don't get me wrong I understand that this will be a niche market and I never plan on seeing huge volume in sales but I have faith in Tory's set-up so I will help him in anyways I can to get the word out

 

[fcm42000]

Whats your point?

I guaranty if our cars came with coil overs some people would be trying like hell to get T-bars and leaf springs put in them. It is just natural, people want things they can't have or are hard to get.

 

[autoxcuda]

Wow who cares who is opposed to a good and cheap k frame for a mopar. .....

Then you better make sure it is in fact good. And it better in fact have real benefits not imagined ones.

Sellers should demonstrate what qualifies their product. Like:

• This is the bumpsteer measurements of a stock K-member, here is ours.
• This is the ackermann measurements of a stock K-member, here is ours.
• This is the camber change measurements of a stock K-member, here is ours.
• ... so on and so on...

That's not revealing any of the design of the part, just it's performance. Another one would be to put a stock K-member in a hydraulic press with a pressure gauge and record the force it took when the K-member just starts to deflect. You could do that by running a tight string across it and watch for it to bend. Then do that same test with the new tubular K-member.

Just basic selling... Presentation without demonstration is merely conversation.

 

[dusterbd13]

if people would do that with all their suspension pieces, id be a lot happier. tube UCA's being the big one. what benifits other than "better suspension geometry and improved caster"?

for the tube k-members, im looking forward to seing some hard data. i like the looks, and the idea of losing some more weight off the front end, but if thats all it does other than R&P conversion, id have to debate the spending of money.

the RMS is a nice quality piece, no doubt about it. ive driven one, and have to say that it drives more like a metric chassis GM product that a t-bar mopar. nothing better or worse than that. depends on what youre going for.

im waiting for more info on the k-frame.

on the economics front, im digging the discussion. i havnt thought about this kind of stuff in a long time, since i went to college. used to go drinking with some of the guys from the buisness/economics school. (had a pshych, history, and anthropolgy makor in the group too) really interesting conversations...

 

[USCG CHARGER]

USCG Charger, what you spouted off where principles and not laws, do you know the difference college boy? That fact that you said you have a MBA is pompous and arbitrary, I bet you took Micro and Macro economics and thats it, if you tell me you understood them you are flat lying. You are not an economist and even if you were it wouldn't matter, economics is like politics and philosophy, no right answer just a ton of opinions on interpretation. ENOUGH TALK OF ECONOMICS, ITS GAY TO DO THAT ON A CAR FORUM. The market will decide if his price is too high.

College Boy? lol Well if you can decipher what USCG means then you will know that I'm not a college boy.. In fact I'm not a BOY at all I have been serving my county for the past 12 years in the military... sometime I wish I was a "college BOY" though..LMAO

 

[efriedrich]

You are right fcm4200. The market will dictate the price, its called the invisible hand a concept introduced in a book written buy one of the most influential economists in the last 300 years, Adam Smith in the late 1700's.

 

[rapidtransitric]

First of all, this is a free market system if the price of the alterkation was too high, mr reilly would be out of business, seems like he is doing ok, through a recesion, just saying.

Johns parts, you the consumer don't like what is going on, you think you can build a better mouse trap, for cheaper. Good, thats how the system works, just don't find out the hard way that is that price for a reason, all though I doubt it.

USCG Charger, what you spouted off where principles and not laws, do you know the difference college boy? That fact that you said you have a MBA is pompous and arbitrary, I bet you took Micro and Macro economics and thats it, if you tell me you understood them you are flat lying. You are not an economist and even if you were it wouldn't matter, economics is like politics and philosophy, no right answer just a ton of opinions on interpretation. ENOUGH TALK OF ECONOMICS, ITS GAY TO DO THAT ON A CAR FORUM. The market will decide if his price is too high.

But why all the fuss to get a tubular K member, I mean really, WTF? I don't know why some guys get caught up on thinking they need stuff that doesn't really matter. People successfully raced these cars with torsion bars, once again WTF? And dont ask the guy that bought one he is not going to admit how stupid of a purchase it was, he is 5 grand into the deal. Do you think there aren't days when he says," oh yea 5 grand it was totally worth it, my bills can wait". I mean if you got money to blow then do it, but for an average guy making average money, its just stupid.

so much adversity about the cost of a k frame... how about the guy's on the aluminum bumper bracket thread who are willing to fork out 500 big one for aluminum bumper brackets?

 

[rjsjea]

Hard to muttle through a bunch of bickering here....


I'll just add that I'm pretty sure Bill at RMS isnt building a 3rd house in Maui making AlterK's.

 

[twofosho]

What I've been able to glean from all these K discussions:

With the stock K frame weighing in around 30-35 pounds, the amount of weight lost by going to ANY tubular K frame is not going to amount to much.

Loosing the fully sprung factory torsion bars and going with amy other springing device (I. E. coilovers and/or A arms) will actually INCREASE the unsprung weight.

Going to a power steering rack can possibly save weight off the stock power steering chuck, but it is sprung weight you'd be saving, and not nearly as important as reducing unsprung weight. The stock steering chuck weight on the front end can be more than offset by using more aluminum components on the engine (cylinder heads, intake manifold, etc.).

The stock power steering chuck when rebuilt by Firm Feel or others can be the equal of any rack setup as far as steering feel and/or response.

It's really difficult to out engineer the factory design of what was/is a really good design rarely equaled or exceeded by the competition. The Pinto/Mustang II suspension for one is often touted as a really good design and is said to be similar to the '60 and later Mopar suspension in the basic geometry parameters (roll centers, swing arm length, etc.) and vastly superior to the then contemporary offerings of GM.

Most here feel gouged by aftermarket Mopar suppliers as compared to suppliers for other brands. Good luck with that one. Living in the most litigious society on the planet where winning a lawsuit is like winning the lottery, and living in a country where government at every level is reaching ever so more deeply into the pockets of it's citizenry and most especially it's small business community, is it any wonder a small volume vender (I'm utterly amazed Jamie Passon can design and build a new transmission, charge roughly 10% over his actual manufacturing costs, recoup his development costs, and still make enough profit to stay in business) would need to charge more just to have a little left over at the end of the day to take home to the family.

The main reason most want to use a tubular K frame is packaging (more room for headers mostly) and/or the abandonment of the stock torsion bar setup (again mostly accommodation of header or other engine components). What I haven't seen anyone address yet, but perhaps might be the better solution would be removing most all of the stock K frame pinch flange and possibly narrowing the main K crossmember considerably along with adding a brace across the open side of the K just ahead of the bellhousing like the Mustang crowd. Of course, you're still on your own in building headers to take advantage of any new found space.

All in all, if you make the investment of a good TIG setup, tube bender, and notcher, make the effort to build a sturdy, accurate fixture table, and rig all the components in place to make an accurate assembly jig, locate a local tubing supplier willing to work with you so you're not spending a fortune in raw materials and transportation costs, and spend the time to really learn the techniques and procedures needed to build a quality product that won't kill someone or get your butt sued, not to mention acquiring just short of a degree in engineering to get the suspension parameters correct if you modify any from stock, you can build yourself a tubular K frame. Just be prepared to spend far more initially than the cost of even the most expensive ones out there, and recognize that you're going to be building a few to recoup your investment.

 

[johnparts]

That's actually funny because my friend just passed his pe engineering test and is able to sign and insure blueprints and is a mechanical engineer. He will be going over every inch of the prototype when we get our hands on it and can even do similulated f/e analysis.

 

[HemiDenny]

I think twofosho pretty much summed it up.....especially the last paragraph

 

[HemiDenny]

well heck John...you didn't tell us you had a friend...

 

[valiantpatrol]

I like the arguments regarding the building of a better mousetrap for a lesser price. That is what made this country. Don't complain - Do! I also find it interesting that the one person that admitted buying an expensive system did it to get a "low look" (no offense intended) and did not buy it for the quick ratio of the rack and pinion because they were having difficulty with hand over hand motion while conering on a road course or drifting on a closed circuit somewhere. The one comment about the mopar t-bar suspension being superior for its time is most accurate and still true today. At many track days at Firestone and Buttonwillow raceways the valiant patrol, albiet with a set of aluminum wheels and sticky tires, produces lap times very close to and even better than many other "stock", and some modified performance cars. Most people there can't figure it out because they directly equate what they spend to performance level. If you feel the need to have a certain thing, buy it. If your doing so to keep up with the "money" guys go for it. But me, autoxcuda, and the green brick will likely eat you alive if you ever show up for track day with our "stock" suspensions. And I'll do it with the greatest satisfaction of all, knowing that I did not have to bankrupt my household to do it. I wish you nothing but success with your k-member venture but don't expect an order from me as I already have the best one ever engineered for my car.

 

[Revhendo]

Wow, a bunch of angry angry hippos here. I'm not so sure the oringinal post is even considered in what has become an advanced economics/Bill vs. the world thread.

So FWIW, I think the Mustang and Camaro setups are mainly a replacement of a stamped factory piece whereas the K replacement for our cars is more of a suspension/steering conversion piece.

Still, this is an interesting thread with plenty of relevent info. Provided you get through the other stuff.

 

[Revhendo]

I like the arguments regarding the building of a better mousetrap for a lesser price. That is what made this country. Don't complain - Do! I also find it interesting that the one person that admitted buying an expensive system did it to get a "low look" (no offense intended) and did not buy it for the quick ratio of the rack and pinion because they were having difficulty with hand over hand motion while conering on a road course or drifting on a closed circuit somewhere. The one comment about the mopar t-bar suspension being superior for its time is most accurate and still true today. At many track days at Firestone and Buttonwillow raceways the valiant patrol, albiet with a set of aluminum wheels and sticky tires, produces lap times very close to and even better than many other "stock", and some modified performance cars. Most people there can't figure it out because they directly equate what they spend to performance level. If you feel the need to have a certain thing, buy it. If your doing so to keep up with the "money" guys go for it. But me, autoxcuda, and the green brick will likely eat you alive if you ever show up for track day with our "stock" suspensions. And I'll do it with the greatest satisfaction of all, knowing that I did not have to bankrupt my household to do it. I wish you nothing but success with your k-member venture but don't expect an order from me as I already have the best one ever engineered for my car.

Hmmm, I'm thinking you might be on to something.

 

[old mopars]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative and sometimes heated. But here is my two cents: I have been a hot rodder for 45 years. I do not weld but have managed to build some nice cars. I am presently building a 68 Dart race car. I am using an Alterktion front end because it is scary enough to go mid-8's in a car without having to worry about if the front end is up to the task. I leave that stuff to the real pros.
I'm not finished living yet. Yes 5K is a lot of $$ but only my ex-wife would think I am not worth at least that amount. LOL.

 

[rapidtransitric]

so is there any real conclusion here?

 

[demon34071]

Alterkation Price Breakdown as I see it: (estimated) Handling Kit $3995 (website)

K frame - bare $1588.10 - subtracted parts $ to obtain
front roll bar - $300 - subtracted race kit from handling kit
Upper control arms - $299 - website price
Lower control arms - $ 299 - Can't find price so used same as uppers
Coil overs set up - $400 - Summit racing - used same cost as my rear 4 link set up
Mustang II spindles - $161.95/each -- summit racing - (2) needed
Fab work to the spindles - $200 - est $100 per side (2 hrs of fab work per side $50/hr)
Rack & Pinion set up - $450 - Summit racing (price varies but I used a flaming river unit since bill is a distributor of them I figure he may use them
Rack to steering column connector - $75 - strictly a guess
Misc hardware and bushings - $60 - strictly a guess

So the as per my breakdown as I see it:
Alterkation bare frame $1,588 (by my math)
Cap bare frame - $1350 - mancini website
Mangnuforce - $1300 (roughly) - magnumforce website had to do some math

Is it still roughly 2.5 - 3 times the same price as units for fords or chevys - YES -- But all things considered all of the company's are charging are the same and its apparently what the market will bare.

FYI -- regarding mopars not having the volume numbers:

70 production numbers
Camaro - 249,802
Mustang - 198,239
Duster - 217,192 ( 173,638 sold in usa )
Dart - 150,876
71 Demon -79,959

based on the production numbers its really tough to say that mopars do not have the numbers there to justify a lower price. Especially when you consider that the front end is the same from 67-76 where as the Camaro's and Mustangs changed there front ends ever couple years.... I think the big factor is that mopars got CRUSHED more so than the chevy's and ford's so there are actually less out there being restored. since there are fewer being restored the cost to do so is more.

So I really think that everyone's biggest issue with the Alterkation kit is the one time up front cost. $4K with no brakes is tough all at once and that is the only way it is currently offered. I personally am struggling with the cost myself even though that is the route I may end up going. If RMS ever offered a bare K-frame and then a list of part numbers to buy the rest of the parts I think we would see more of them out there since they could be bought over time as money warranted.

Lets face it us car guys are not the best at saving, we spend it on new parts as we get since, since most of our lives will demand it elsewhere if it sits around too long.

 

[clutch]

Hmmm, I'm thinking you might be on to something.

I built this car using all stock and some modified stock suspension parts.
I don't think I had $2,500 into the entire front and rear suspension including
the wheels and tires.
It handles like its on rails and I don't think you would
want to go much lower!8)

 

[abodyjoe]

Have you called RMS to see if they will sell it piece by piece as money allows.? I know its not broken down on the site like that but I could swear that bill said he would sell it piece by piece if ya wanted.. I think it was in a thread on bbd a while back.

 

[demon34071]

Have you called RMS to see if they will sell it piece by piece as money allows.? I know its not broken down on the site like that but I could swear that bill said he would sell it piece by piece if ya wanted.. I think it was in a thread on bbd a while back.

No I hadn't, but I just emailed him to see if he would. Never hurts to ask.

 

[d5667]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative and sometimes heated. But here is my two cents: I have been a hot rodder for 45 years. I do not weld but have managed to build some nice cars. I am presently building a 68 Dart race car. I am using an Alterktion front end because it is scary enough to go mid-8's in a car without having to worry about if the front end is up to the task. I leave that stuff to the real pros.
I'm not finished living yet. Yes 5K is a lot of $$ but only my ex-wife would think I am not worth at least that amount. LOL.

My X said she would make one for me-A very nice one

 

[twofosho]

I guess the bottom line for me is why join the Mustang based suspension/coilover crowd when my dollars (and fewer of them too) would be better spent on refurbishing the stock steering components, adding torque boxes, frame connectors, and engine box stiffeners, upgrading the brakes, springs (T bars and leaf), shocks, and stabilizer bars, and using less compliant bushes.

Using a high dollar tubular K frame just to replace the factory stamping without really improving anything but a little clearance for headers doesn't seem like smart money and the older I get, the more valuable I consider my time.