You learn something new everyday. How long will an LA small block hold up at 550 horsepower
- Thread starter pittsburghracer
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replicaracer43
Grumpy Old Man
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This engine is fixing to get beat like it stole something, and I'm gonna have zero mercy on it, so that's to hopefully prevent broken rocker or valve train parts from making there way to the bottom. Or, I dunno, it looks pretty cool regardless
That’s a neat idea for a safety measure. Thanks for answering.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
never forgot this…back 25 odd years ago was at the Indy swap meet.
was looking at buying a set of Edelbrock heads.
went by the Indy cylinder head booth, and told them what I had up my sleeve. A stroker 340 with Eddie heads to bracket race and street cruise( always been my MO..LOL,)
any how Herb and Ken Lazzeri(sp) heard what I had in mind. Herb says…. “ Stay away from a drag strip with those heads”
He and Ken then show me the brand new Indybrock heads they had just brought to market. Offset Eddie’s.
they said buy a set of these and you won’t be out of place at the track.
In short, they were full of ****. Those heads over time have proved to be maybe a tenth better than ported Eddie’s…maybe…….
The stay away from the track comment was dumb as a box of rocks, especially from a guy who should know better than to say something like that.
They just wanted to sell what they were brewing up( which I don’t believe ever took off very well)
I ended up buying Eddie’s from Hensley, had Matt do a non full on port job, and was very happy running 10’s at the track with them.
I like the chicken wire thing. If a rocker adjuster breaks off, or another thing in the head, believe me even springs can break into small tiny parts. The chicken wire will be a safety net, literally.
Other builds just block it off entirely.
They do port out really well and save a “Pittsburghracer” sleeve the pushrod exercise out. I don’t know who has done what with those heads in terms of the full porting or race ported work. Do you know of any flow tests done with those “Indy/Brock” heads?
The pushrod area isn’t the problem on Edelbrock heads if you use and take what is available.
Can you see a benefit with the pushrod totally removed?
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
I have done 2 sets of the Indy TA heads that went 320 cfm at .700 lift...both sets made 650+HP with 13:1 compression. Not too shabby.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
think Indy claimed they went 306 cfm max back in the day.
the real test is what ET MPH and
weight did the car they were in run.
the Bloomer heads, which aren’t offset and are factory replacement heads have actually made around that power at the track, not just a dyno.
“Using a 2.08 valve, getting 315cfm out of eddys is common for us....Indybrock will go 320. Our Indy's can go 350cfm...”
Brian
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Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
It's not my duty to make sure the car goes the number...that's on the racer. If the car sucks, or is sub par...not my problem. I can't hold everyone's hand. I do offer advice to our customers, again maybe they follow it...maybe they don't.
Converters seem to be the biggest problem with cars not running good #'s with a known HP engine. See this way too much! A buddy of mine running a Ford had me do his heads and intake, car slowed down...I kept telling him to check rpm at trap...never would. But I somehow got the blame for it slowing down...until he changed engines (more power) and it went even slower! That's when he wised up and changed converter/trans and car came to life...it is what it is.
lead69
hopeless car junkie
I appreciate this reply, see it all the time. There's a lot more involved with running the number than hp, to me that's the easy part.
Good for low 10's at a buck thirty something at 3500#'s. A rocket in a well sorted 2800# chassis
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the comment. My point was more to where flow number and dyno readings are just numbers that can’t really be taken for more than numbers until a car goes down the track.
and example of what I mean…Ryan ported a set of W5 heads for me, the numbers he got out of them he had posted on his website back then. They were, in my opinion, rather optimistic.
the heads ended up on two other benches over time, one was Best machine, the other I won’t mention, but he is a well known Mopar guru.
On neither bench did they get over 300.
that said, ultimately they went low 9.6’s at over 3200 pounds at 140
did you ever follow up with either set of those Indybrocks to see what the cars they went in ultimately ran?
to me that would be the most useful info. I get it that not all cars run what they should, but I also get that most cars ultimately get close enough to draw conclusions from. Very few serious builds remain dogs forever
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
650+ horsepower is capable of more ET than low 10’s, even at that weight
I’m just sitting here thinking all you Mopar guys are nuts putting that much horsepower in an old truck block. When the clock strikes 100 runs, pla-blueie!!!
The 10K engine and $50 converter syndrome
My other favorite is the engine makes good power on a dyno, then it's a dog in the car. Engine gets the blame, yet the systems on the car are inferior to the dyno AND they are straight off fred flintsone's car. But it didn't run the number. So many variables.
Friend has a car, it runs 11.00 at 132... nothing wrong there, blames the engine all the time. LOL Probably a high 9's mill in a 12.50 chassis.
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Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
You missed his point completely.
Half the junk at drag strips today is underachieving. Not because the dyno was bad, but because the owner/tuner isnt qualified to run a timing light.
Or they think any shock will do. Or a hundred other things that they **** up and blame the tool for.
I race with a lot of mid 30 guys and I swear they can’t change the oil without getting on Facebook and calling in the troupes but most of them are good drivers. The oldtimers build their engines as they have little interest in learning how to do it. My son wouldn’t port a set of heads if you paid him 5000.00. Zero interest.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
I didn’t miss his point at all. He didn’t offer any info on either of the two customer cars the heads he did went on.
frankly, not sure how often you get to a track, I suspect not often, but most everybody I know who is a Mopsr guy and would invest that kind of money on heads, probably cares how his car runs and isn’t the kind of guy who gets his car out once or twice a year.
I think you undervalue guys who desire to have 650 horse small blocks.
Dwayne, whose opinion I value greatly, thinks a typical solid running bracket type car should be at least at 90% of what it’s potential is.
so a 500 horse motor on the dyno should put down figures that show 450 horse.
I thinks that’s probably a fair assessment. Many guys are closer than that( stockers, etc, etc)
Guess I have always just called them how I see them. A true 650+ horse Eddie head motor( pushrod moved over or not) isn’t as easy for me to swallow as maybe others on here.
I know my pro built( Best machine) W5 bullet, that in its initial form(13 to 1, Dwayne specced roller, Cp slugs, dominator, etc, etc made 650 based on track results using the stingy morose slide rule calculator.
and I don’t think I was missing much once it was sorted out.
I have a hard time believing that indybrock is that good, unless I can see a slip and the particulars.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Been to the track enough to know way too many cars out there are underachievers. That’s all you need to know.
People with slow junk love to blame the tool.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
We don’t know if something is an underachiever unless we know what it runs and weighs, and what the combo is though, do we.
I have nothing against Brian, by all accounts he runs a nice shop.
As a business owner myself, it’s good business to sell the sizzle. Like I said, knowing how stuff ultimately runs says a lot about the validity of the numbers.
For my part, I am not gonna assume the two guys with the 650 horse heads put them on doggy running combos without track numbers And or more information than just saying they made 650 horsepower.
As I mentioned earlier, I wasn’t upset to hear that heads I was proud of and ran good (W5) didn’t break 300 on two very,very respected benches.
Numbers, I have found by personal experience, don’t mean ****. it didn’t embarrass me, it was just reality. Is what it is.
Been around enough stuff off Brian's dyno to know it isn't some fluffer deal like some guys out there. A bunch of stuff runs pretty darn close to what it should in a sorted out chassis. Selling stuff that has fluffed up numbers will usually end badly and is bad business, IMO. Talk about something that will NEVER run the numbers. Fluffer stuff is that. Look at the build MM and other mags have done and the disappointing numbers at the track if it every actually makes it there.
One old and popular Chevy builder was notorious and blantly used to talk about "numbers sell engines" and his stuff was always fluffed up badly.
Just watch old "pass time" episodes to laugh and be amazed at how overblown at output some people think their stuff makes.
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Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I can talk to the car owner for 5 minutes watch a run and tell you for a fact if it’s an underachiever. Been doing it for decades.
You might not be able to, but other of us can. And do.
It never ceases to amaze me that guys who can’t build an engine (that means doing the machine work and the tuning) come on forums like this and argue with the guys who can do it. It gets pretty ******* old, really fast.
You are knocking an engine build whose work you can’t possible duplicate and then claim it’s bad numbers and ****.
**** that. I know I‘m tired of the ****. And IIRC you argue header size like an expert but your testing is minimal at best.
Same ****.
You don’t have a ******* clue what it takes to make 650 horsepower or how to tune it, or how to make it get down the track, or you’d be doing it.
You just write the check.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
you have no clue what you are talking about. Anybody can talk to the car owner and get an idea.
that’s my whole point. Nothing about the cars, owners, combo’s ET’s was mentioned, so it’s kinda impossible to figure out what it is or isn’t, or did I miss something in this thread that was posted and I didn’t see, wise ***.
And regards knowing how to make 650 horsepower, I have done it.
my background is engineering, for many years, anybody who knows me knows that.I am very capable of knowing exactly what parts will make what power. But yes, I am not into screwing motors together, zero interest in it, best left to professionals. Seen too many hacks try to build stuff that runs like **** and breaks all the time. No thanks, I have enough going on in my life I don’t want or need to deal with stuff like that.
regards my current car/ combo, I have said from day 1 it isn’t going to be a max effort sterling deal.
my current health situation doesn’t allow for anything that I need to spend much time working on….I have enough sense to know I am running a 40 over stock block that I would rather not have grenade and perhaps cut short my racing season( when I don’t know how many I have left). I am dealing with emphysema and a bad back from a botched VA Surgery. I used to work on my stuff and others stuff, health has slowed me WAY down last few years
For the first time in my racing life I have intentionally put a piece of wood under the gas pedal, so I can enjoy racing trouble free for as long as I can.
you think I don’t know a dinky 560 gross lift cam is killing my combo’s potential, of course it is. But I have zero interest in chasing it anymore.
the new headers( which hopefully helps the value of the car when I am gone and my wife deals with selling it) is pretty much the end of the line.
hopefully it wakes the car up a little more and I am happy with it at that point.
not interested in moving further away from the streetability the car currently has, make it harder to get rid of.
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justinp61
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So, guys that don't do the machine work on the engines they build aren't capable of building a engine?
Gee, I haven't done the machine work on any engine I've built, but I have done all the measuring to verify the clearances, oiling mods, assembly and finally tuning. I also do my own transmissions, gear set up and all my own fabrication.
I knew there was something missing in my life, now I know. I need to invest in a machine shop. LOL
BTW, What car are you running and how fast is it? Slackers everywhere are dying to know.
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