'70 Dart 392 Project; what direction?

[408 swinger]

One thing to keep in mind when switching from MDS to Non MDS lifters is the yokes. The bodies where the MDS lifter receive into the yoke is physically larger. If you put a NON MDS lifter in the spot where an MDS lifter was, there will be too much slop. As in, the lifter can rotate slightly in the yoke.

 

[208Dart]

One thing to keep in mind when switching from MDS to Non MDS lifters is the yokes. The bodies where the MDS lifter receive into the yoke is physically larger. If you put a NON MDS lifter in the spot where an MDS lifter was, there will be too much slop. As in, the lifter can rotate slightly in the yoke.

That’s good to know, thank you! I’d originally planned on reusing my yokes but the new non MDS lifters come with new yokes.

Another question, is it a bad idea to reuse the factory oil pump? Varying opinions out there.

Mike

 

[408 swinger]

That’s good to know, thank you! I’d originally planned on reusing my yokes but the new non MDS lifters come with new yokes.

Another question, is it a bad idea to reuse the factory oil pump? Varying opinions out there.

Mike

The Eagle pumps are better than the early pumps. The Hellcats are spose to be best for factory. Honestly, I would have no issue re-using the factory Eagle pump. If low mileage, that is. Good oil and a little higher idle RPM are a good idea.

 

[208Dart]

The Eagle pumps are better than the early pumps. The Hellcats are spose to be best for factory. Honestly, I would have no issue re-using the factory Eagle pump. If low mileage, that is. Good oil and a little higher idle RPM are a good idea.

Engine had I was told 140k on it, however judging by cylinder wear it was in excellent shape in the short block. Factory pump seems to be in good working order, almost no perceivable play in the mating drive wheel inside the housing. Though in the long term, saving $180 or so for the hellcat pump seems to make me feel like a cheapskate…. :-/
Thanks for the help bud, appreciate the time and info.

Mike

 

[208Dart]

HDK front suspension will be delivered tomorrow, excited to check it out. Machine shop had to order some exhaust valve guides last week and stem seals so hopefully get those back this week as well.

Been doing some thinking in transmission situation. Got an 833 from a ‘70 Duster, hurst shifter with linkage, Z bars, trans tunnel hump, and pedal setup here in the shop. One thing I keep coming up against is my highway driving. We live 25 miles from town on a 65mph highway. I cruise at 70mph every day…. I’m going to want an OD setup. I’ve got an 8 3/4 housing with 3.23 pumpkin.

Been looking at gearvendor setup and running the ratios and it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with the 4 spd. Couple of gears are only 15mph different at 5500rpm shift point and with a 29” tall tire I’m still cruising at a higher rpm on the highway with the .78 OD ratio.

The TKX with the .72 OD setup is actually very appealing. The shorter 1st gear compliments the 3.23 rear gears in town and still allows cruising around 2200rpm on the highway…

pricing out the flywheel, clutch, hydraulic TOB, rebuild kit, and gearvendor setup I’m darn close to a TKX kit. Especially if I sell the 833 setup in here and just keep my pedal assembly. Going to be chopping up the floorboard anyways for the manual swap, and both ShiftSST and American powertrain kits come with a new trans tunnel.

Anybody got any advice? The SST kit without driveline is $5400. The American PT kit is $6300 with driveline. Thanks in advance.

Mike

 

[208Dart]

HDK showed up today.

 

[DionR]

We live 25 miles from town on a 65mph highway. I cruise at 70mph every day…. I’m going to want an OD setup.

My situation is similar. 30 miles on a 60mph road to get into the "big town" of Spokane. Overdrive is a must for me.

Been looking at gearvendor setup and running the ratios and it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with the 4 spd. Couple of gears are only 15mph different at 5500rpm shift point and with a 29” tall tire I’m still cruising at a higher rpm on the highway with the .78 OD ratio.

The TKX with the .72 OD setup is actually very appealing. The shorter 1st gear compliments the 3.23 rear gears in town and still allows cruising around 2200rpm on the highway…

pricing out the flywheel, clutch, hydraulic TOB, rebuild kit, and gearvendor setup I’m darn close to a TKX kit. Especially if I sell the 833 setup in here and just keep my pedal assembly. Going to be chopping up the floorboard anyways for the manual swap, and both ShiftSST and American powertrain kits come with a new trans tunnel.

Anybody got any advice? The SST kit without driveline is $5400. The American PT kit is $6300 with driveline. Thanks in advance.

Mike

I spend a bunch of time looking at the TKX and T56. In the end I was leaning towards the narrow ratio TKX if I went with the 5 speed. But I was looking at a 3.55 rear gear with it. It cost about 100rpm on highway but seemed to be the better setup (to me). I liked that it would pull better in 4th than the wide ratio with 3.23. And I like the more even splits between gears (34/32/21/32) compared to the wide ratio (39/32/25/28). That said, a 3.27 first gear with 3.23 gears is going to outpull a 2.87 first with 3.55 gears.

In the end, I decided that I want the double OD of the T56. If I am cutting the floor out anyway, it's not much more work. The trans by itself is only like $500, but I think the kit is more since it takes some bigger cost things. But one of the companies you mentioned sells a cast aluminum bell that should work (I think) and keeps costs down.

In the end, the T56 with the 2.97/0.50 gears (TUET-11012), 3.55 rear gears and 245/45R17 tires put me right in line with how my 2015 R/T drove. And I loved how that one cruised.

I actually got the cost down to about $5500 sourcing most of my own parts and keeping my existing clutch outside of swapping the disk.

But that was with an LA, not sure how it will pencil out with the G3 swap I am working on.

Beyond that, I can't help. I got quotes from both companies you mentioned, plus Modern Driveline, but don't remember enough to give input on who would be the better source beyond the fact that I think all of them were really expensive for the hydraulic conversion kits they offered.

 

[208Dart]

My situation is similar. 30 miles on a 60mph road to get into the "big town" of Spokane. Overdrive is a must for me.



I spend a bunch of time looking at the TKX and T56. In the end I was leaning towards the narrow ratio TKX if I went with the 5 speed. But I was looking at a 3.55 rear gear with it. It cost about 100rpm on highway but seemed to be the better setup (to me). I liked that it would pull better in 4th than the wide ratio with 3.23. And I like the more even splits between gears (34/32/21/32) compared to the wide ratio (39/32/25/28). That said, a 3.27 first gear with 3.23 gears is going to outpull a 2.87 first with 3.55 gears.

In the end, I decided that I want the double OD of the T56. If I am cutting the floor out anyway, it's not much more work. The trans by itself is only like $500, but I think the kit is more since it takes some bigger cost things. But one of the companies you mentioned sells a cast aluminum bell that should work (I think) and keeps costs down.

In the end, the T56 with the 2.97/0.50 gears (TUET-11012), 3.55 rear gears and 245/45R17 tires put me right in line with how my 2015 R/T drove. And I loved how that one cruised.

I actually got the cost down to about $5500 sourcing most of my own parts and keeping my existing clutch outside of swapping the disk.

But that was with an LA, not sure how it will pencil out with the G3 swap I am working on.

Beyond that, I can't help. I got quotes from both companies you mentioned, plus Modern Driveline, but don't remember enough to give input on who would be the better source beyond the fact that I think all of them were really expensive for the hydraulic conversion kits they offered.

I'm not far from you at all. Commute from the Genesee area down to Lewiston every day.

The double OD of the T56 is something I've looked at as well, ran the RPM calcs for the close ratio but not the wide ratio yet. Don't think you can go wrong with either trans honestly, just depends on rear gear and average cruising speed. The gearvendors setup seems real nice for a 3 spd auto setup but I just don't see the benefits of it with a 4 speed.

I'm sure I could source my own hydraulic TOB setup, wouldn't be too hard. Just not sure I want to. If it's a matter of saving $300-$400 then my time is better spent working my own business. Time is money and I'm real short on time. Is there a way to make the 833 linkage work with the TKX? Or is hydraulic TOB the best way to go?

At this point I'm wondering what I could see my Abody 833/flywheel/bellhousing/shifter/trans tunnel assembly for. I paid $2500 for all of it locally along with pedals and need to keep my pedal assembly to make the swap work.

Mike

 

[DionR]

I'm not far from you at all. Commute from the Genesee area down to Lewiston every day.

Not far at all! If you ever get up this way, make sure to reach out.

I'm sure I could source my own hydraulic TOB setup, wouldn't be too hard. Just not sure I want to. If it's a matter of saving $300-$400 then my time is better spent working my own business. Time is money and I'm real short on time.

Here is a list of the parts I put together. Looks like I misquoted myself, this list is more like $5750 for a T56 Magnum swap:

Tremec

Looks like the TOB was $65, MC was $125 and then a $100 mount from someone on here plus some hoses.

Is there a way to make the 833 linkage work with the TKX? Or is hydraulic TOB the best way to go?

The next post in the above thread was my parts list and costs for a TKX swap. That list was built around a "stock" bellhousing that should accept the OEM clutch linkage.

I was all excited about trying to avoid a hydraulic setup and use my existing linkage, plus it saved me a fair amount of money. In the end, I wanted the double OD too much. Add that I am now going down the G3 Swap road and using the Holley mounts, so even if I wanted to use my existing A833OD I would have to go to a hydraulic clutch since the motor moves forward some. I can't imagine trying to rebuild the mounts and linkages to work with the new bellhousing location.

 

[208Dart]

Not far at all! If you ever get up this way, make sure to reach out.



Here is a list of the parts I put together. Looks like I misquoted myself, this list is more like $5750 for a T56 Magnum swap:

Tremec

Looks like the TOB was $65, MC was $125 and then a $100 mount from someone on here plus some hoses.



The next post in the above thread was my parts list and costs for a TKX swap. That list was built around a "stock" bellhousing that should accept the OEM clutch linkage.

I was all excited about trying to avoid a hydraulic setup and use my existing linkage, plus it saved me a fair amount of money. In the end, I wanted the double OD too much. Add that I am now going down the G3 Swap road and using the Holley mounts, so even if I wanted to use my existing A833OD I would have to go to a hydraulic clutch since the motor moves forward some. I can't imagine trying to rebuild the mounts and linkages to work with the new bellhousing location.

Will do! I actually bought my engine and intake off Spokane Craigslist

Good info man I’ll cruise the thread a bit! I think at this point I’ll run some more gear ratio calcs and start saving for an OD trans, be it the T56 or TKX…. Either way it’ll be the same amount of work so I might look a little more into the T56.

Got the do a little engine assembly today. Got heads in and torqued, painted my Holley front cover yesterday. Going to mask off and paint the long block here soon.

Also FYI the valve spring spacers are different between the BGE heads and the Apache (SRT8) heads. MMX had to send new ones which are about .060” thinner than the car 6.4 spacers.

 

[208Dart]

Alright ya'll kind of a dumb question, but since this isn't an OEM engine build, and I'm running the MDS delete... Is there anything I need to install under the intake before installing the intake? I believe I route two heater hoses to the front cover under the intake, but other than that....? Not sure if there's any emissions equipment that was under there prior that won't be used. Top end engine fire had everything torched real bad so it was a mess getting everything broken down.

Also I'll be machining an delete plate for the back of the intake like this one: 6.4L HEMI Intake Manifold Short Runner Lockout
Don't anticipate any issues but if someone has done it and has advice on anything that'll need changed out in addition to the plate, I'd appreciate the info.

Thank you in advance.

Mike

 

[DionR]

Alright ya'll kind of a dumb question, but since this isn't an OEM engine build, and I'm running the MDS delete... Is there anything I need to install under the intake before installing the intake? I believe I route two heater hoses to the front cover under the intake, but other than that....? Not sure if there's any emissions equipment that was under there prior that won't be used. Top end engine fire had everything torched real bad so it was a mess getting everything broken down.

Guessing you locked out the VVT stuff, right? The wiring for the VVT solenoid is the only other thing under the manifold that I know of.

 

[208Dart]

Guessing you locked out the VVT stuff, right? The wiring for the VVT solenoid is the only other thing under the manifold that I know of.

Correct I installed a limiter/lock from MMX. Just makes me nervous to see unused bolt holes Thank you Sir

Mike

 

[DionR]

Also I'll be machining an delete plate for the back of the intake like this one: 6.4L HEMI Intake Manifold Short Runner Lockout
Don't anticipate any issues but if someone has done it and has advice on anything that'll need changed out in addition to the plate, I'd appreciate the info.

Are you planning to lock it in long runner mode or short runner mode? The linked one locks it in long runner mode.

Honestly, seems like if someone were to lock it in long runner mode, why not just get a 5.7 intake and call it good. Ports are the same at the head, I bet there isn't much difference if the 6.4 intake is set to long runner mode. And a 5.7 intake is a ton cheaper than a 6.4 one.

But I'm just speculating.

 

[208Dart]

Are you planning to lock it in long runner mode or short runner mode? The linked one locks it in long runner mode.

Honestly, seems like if someone were to lock it in long runner mode, why not just get a 5.7 intake and call it good. Ports are the same at the head, I bet there isn't much difference if the 6.4 intake is set to long runner mode. And a 5.7 intake is a ton cheaper than a 6.4 one.

But I'm just speculating.

You bring up a good point and I hadn't thought about the 5.7 intake. I already have a 6.4 SRT8 intake sitting here complete with fuel rails and injectors so I'll still use it. Previous owner said it had the big factory injectors, he swapped it onto a 5.7 Charger RT and was overfueling drastically. It's better to dial a big injector down then it is to overrun a small flow injector so don't anticipate any issues running megasquirt.

I was anticipating the "long runner" mode just to help with low end but I don't think this engine will be suffering from lack of power anywhere. If I don't do the delete plate, do you know what it defaults too?

Mike @ HCA

 

[DionR]

I already have a 6.4 SRT8 intake sitting here complete with fuel rails and injectors so I'll still use it.

I plan to run the 6.4 intake at some point if only because it looks cooler (to me).

I do plan to make use of the SRV though, so it will be useful when I get to that point.

If I don't do the delete plate, do you know what it defaults too?

I would see if the valve is spring loaded by twisting it at the solenoid and see if it goes back. If it does, then it probably defaults to short runner mode. Otherwise you wouldn't need a block off plate that holds it in longer runner mode like Mancini is selling, you could just remove the solenoid. The other option is that it moves freely and without something to keep it in one mode then it will flop around. I think the test above would answer that as well.

But just guesses.

 

[208Dart]

I plan to run the 6.4 intake at some point if only because it looks cooler (to me).

I do plan to make use of the SRV though, so it will be useful when I get to that point.

How do you plan on controlling the SRV? I was under the impression it wasn't usable unless running factory ECU. Megasquirt tech didn't mention it but he did say they could run the VVT now. I assumed he would've mentioned the SRV option if they had it.

I'll let ya know when I get the intake apart. Probably get to it tomorrow.

MIke

 

[DionR]

How do you plan on controlling the SRV? I was under the impression it wasn't usable unless running factory ECU. Megasquirt tech didn't mention it but he did say they could run the VVT now. I assumed he would've mentioned the SRV option if they had it.

I know the Holley setup can control it. I thought I read that MegaSquirt could as well, but maybe not?

I am going "roll my own" using a 2009 Challenger 5.7/6M PCM. I know the PCM can control it, but the PCM I have won't currently do it since the 5.7 car intake doesn't have it. My plan (hope?) is to turn it on at some point so it will work. I know Hotwire Auto has the option, so I am assuming it can just be turned on.

I assumed you were removing it due to interference with the firewall.

It's one of the reasons I decided to go with the Holley mounts as they set it up to clear the SRV solenoid. I want it all, VVT/SRV/Eagle heads/EFI/blah/blah.

 

[408 swinger]

I have heard of guys usi g an MSD RPM activated switch set at desired RPM to control the SRV. I haven't done it personally to give any added info.

 

[DionR]

I have heard of guys usi g an MSD RPM activated switch set at desired RPM to control the SRV. I haven't done it personally to give any added info.

Good point. Seems like I see this mostly with late model Challengers when the intake is swapped onto a 5.7. Good place to go for instructions would be ChallengerTalk.com.

At the same time, if it is just a wire switched to power, then the MegaSquirt should be able to control it just fine.

 

[208Dart]

Clearance for firewall was priority #1 though I'm not sure I'll need it with the HDK suspension. Though in truth I'd like to shove that engine as far back as possible to keep the weight more centered.

You make a great point on the possibilities of controlling it if it's just switched power. I'll definitely research it a bit more to see what my options are!

Great info thanks fellas

Mike @ HCA

 

[208Dart]

Engine is ready for paint! I painted my front cover Chevy orange by VVT but it’s way too red. Going to try and find one closer to what the car is painted…

 

[408 swinger]

Maybe street Hemi orange?

 

[208Dart]

Maybe street Hemi orange?

I need to look at it. I’m debating on whether to go another route rather than attempt to match exterior color. Grey/silver always looks good with the orange colors in my opinion, that Red ain’t going to cut it!

Mike

 

[208Dart]

Chrysler hemi orange is a no go as well …. But it is closer