'70 Dart 392 Project; what direction?

[DionR]

I just got done installing my pan. Same thing as yours, the ports aren’t drilled/tapped, but it did come with the plugs for them? Came with a set of Holley branded installation instructions and a “302-61” sticker on the box. Pickup tube fits perfect and everything fits great. Unsure if I’ll need to use the oil return ports or not. Don’t think so since I’m not running a turbo or anything external….?

Far as I know, the only reason to use the oil return ports would be a turbo or similar. I have no expectation that I will need them so I don't really care.

The guy at Holley told me that they wouldn't do anything to replace my pan since I bought it from a third party source. I told him I wouldn't have sent it back even if they would since they can't seem to get any in stock and I already have one that works for me.

My box didn't have the P/N sticker unless I missed it. But everything looks to be correct so I am assuming it was the right P/N. Best I can tell, the only difference between the VVT kit and the non-VVT kit is the pickup and mine seems to match the VVT pick so I think I got the right one.

Hard to tell from pics but the R&P has about 1/4” clearance top/back from the pan. I had to drop the rear support brake off the K member and pull the R&P to get the pan in, but wasn’t a big deal at all.

I also installed the Holley dipstick tube and it’s short and to the point! Love it.

Mike

Very nice!

 

[208Dart]

Few small things done today. Had to pickup new sway bar bolts/nuts. The ones supplied from Helwig through HDK were coarse bolts/fine nuts and stripped out. Then I Got my wheel bearings packed (used the Lisle bearing packer for the first time, thing is awesome!) and rotors/calipers/wheels actually on the car. Still need to roll tranny under the car to check trans crossmember alignment before setting it on the ground to check ride height but its progress!

Next week I’ll be finalizing my steering column mods (got the new floor shift collars in that need paint) and then I’ll be hauling it to my buddies shop after Christmas to do the trans tunnel welding and maybe spring relocate kit. Could do it here but he’s done both before and is a welder/fabricator by trade. He also runs a ‘70 duster with a turbo’s slant six so we enjoy helping each other out on the auto projects!

 

[DionR]

Few small things done today. Had to pickup new sway bar bolts/nuts. The ones supplied from Helwig through HDK were coarse bolts/fine nuts and stripped out. Then I Got my wheel bearings packed (used the Lisle bearing packer for the first time, thing is awesome!) and rotors/calipers/wheels actually on the car. Still need to roll tranny under the car to check trans crossmember alignment before setting it on the ground to check ride height but its progress!

Next week I’ll be finalizing my steering column mods (got the new floor shift collars in that need paint) and then I’ll be hauling it to my buddies shop after Christmas to do the trans tunnel welding and maybe spring relocate kit. Could do it here but he’s done both before and is a welder/fabricator by trade. He also runs a ‘70 duster with a turbo’s slant six so we enjoy helping each other out on the auto projects!

View attachment 1716022316

View attachment 1716022317

View attachment 1716022318

Nice!

Need pic’s of your buddy’s Duster. And more info.

 

[208Dart]

Moving towards the rear of the car I'm starting to research my 8 3/4 build and tire plans. Widest tire I can fit on my planned rear wheels is a 305/45/R17. Puts it at 12" wide tire.... My wheel wells are measuring about 12.25". So the minitub may not be needed. What I do know is that I'm going to be narrowing my axle housing and converting to rear discs, and will for sure need a leaf spring relocate kit.

Does anyone have any recommendation on a rear disc kit? Since I"ll be narrowing my housing anyways I might get by with a less complicated kit rather than adapt the old drum brake flanges to disc brake?

Any direction or tips here would be greatly appreciated! I think it's smart for me to get my drivetrain buttoned up before I move onto wiring/efi/fuel system....etc

Mike @ HCA

 

[208Dart]

Alright few more hours today on the car.
First: transmission mock-up. Brewers performance told me I wouldn’t have to trim input shaft. That is false unless I’m missing something. Need to trim about 3/8” off. Not a big deal for me. Going to rebuild trans anyways and I’ve got 3 lathes I can do the job in.

Transmission mount is close but is still about 1” too far forward. I can’t move my motor mounts back any further so will modify trans cross member later. Not too worried about it either. Totally expected some issues like this.

TTI headers; minor contact on bell housing. Will grind 1/2” off the tab and it’ll be good to go.

I think I’m ready to pull everything and finish weld the motor mounts and paint suspension components.

Now here’s my biggest complaint. Front tires are 24.5” tall, forget the exact size but they’re 17” wheels and a decent sidewall width.
I’ve got the rear end raised and on Jack stands to simulate a 28” tall tire (305/45/R17 nittos planned). The front is on its tallest ride height simulator from @HemiDenny and the car has a very insane rake to it. Not sure if I installed something wrong but I don’t think so…? Header collectors have 3.5” clearance under the car.
Thoughts or recommendations?

 

[Kiddart1]

take into consideration the rear tire under car weight will compress a inch at least. and if that doesn't work just add spacer block to rearend to lower to your preferred height. looks like you are on a Mono or a superstock spring. I run monos on my Demon, super stock springs on my dart both cars with 1 inch spacers to get it into the weeds or as low as i can get it without tire issues. both cars run a 275 drag radial.

 

[racerjoe]

Alright few more hours today on the car.
First: transmission mock-up. Brewers performance told me I wouldn’t have to trim input shaft. That is false unless I’m missing something. Need to trim about 3/8” off. Not a big deal for me. Going to rebuild trans anyways and I’ve got 3 lathes I can do the job in.

Transmission mount is close but is still about 1” too far forward. I can’t move my motor mounts back any further so will modify trans cross member later. Not too worried about it either. Totally expected some issues like this.

TTI headers; minor contact on bell housing. Will grind 1/2” off the tab and it’ll be good to go.

I think I’m ready to pull everything and finish weld the motor mounts and paint suspension components.

Now here’s my biggest complaint. Front tires are 24.5” tall, forget the exact size but they’re 17” wheels and a decent sidewall width.
I’ve got the rear end raised and on Jack stands to simulate a 28” tall tire (305/45/R17 nittos planned). The front is on its tallest ride height simulator from @HemiDenny and the car has a very insane rake to it. Not sure if I installed something wrong but I don’t think so…? Header collectors have 3.5” clearance under the car.
Thoughts or recommendations?

View attachment 1716023121

View attachment 1716023122

View attachment 1716023123

View attachment 1716023124

View attachment 1716023125

View attachment 1716023126

View attachment 1716023127

A 24.5' tire is pretty short, especially when compared to that tall rear tire. I run a 25.4" tire on the front and the rear because I'm trying to keep the car as balanced as possible for increased handling performance. From an appearance prospective, a taller tire looks better in the rear since it fills out the wheel well more. I'm willing to trade off aesthetics for performance in this situation.
My recommendation would be to get a taller tire for the front and something around 27" for the back. That would even it out more. I understand there aren't as many tire size choices for the 17" wheel, so finding tires of the same brand/type in the sizes you need could be a challenge. That's the biggest reason I went with an 18" wheel.

 

[DionR]

An earlier post said 225/45R17 tires. Best I can tell that should be a 25" diameter tire. Not much different, but not 24.5" either.

 

[DionR]

Then I Got my wheel bearings packed (used the Lisle bearing packer for the first time, thing is awesome!) and rotors/calipers/wheels actually on the car.


View attachment 1716022316

View attachment 1716022317

View attachment 1716022318

It's interesting that you were able to get a 225/45R17 tire on a zero offset wheel on your car. My brother had almost exactly that same setup and tried to bolt it on his Demon with a Control Freaks front end and it stuck out a bunch. Wheels and tires are now on Marketplace for sale.

The HDK must be narrower than the suspension my brother has.

He is now working on getting custom 18" wheels to get the tire inside the fender.

 

[208Dart]

Thanks for the replies!
Been digging into this a bit more. The reason I was planning on a 17” rear wheel is they offer a 9.5” wheel width in this wheel and that’s the widest configuration they offer.
Since then, I’ve been doing some research. Strongly considering going with an 18”x8” rear wheel, sending them to weldcraftwheels.com and having them widened to 10”-11”. That would open me up to running a 295/40/R18 in the Nitto G2’s. This would put me at 27.25” tall tire, and if I run the hotchkis rear springs they should drop me 1” as well.
I should be able to raise my front another 1/2-3/4” if I crank the adjustment up on the shocks once they arrive.
Strongly considering bumping up tire size in the front as well, wouldn’t mind seeing if I could stuff a 245 or 255 width tire in there.

In my pics I have the wheel centerline set at 14”. As you said that’s not accounting for any tire squish, nor a full interior/gas tank/battery…etc I believe I’ll be able to accomplish what I want. Hoping to make the 18/17” wheel combination look good with some extra sidewall width in the rear since most 18’s I see on this forum are 255/35 or similar.

It's interesting that you were able to get a 225/45R17 tire on a zero offset wheel on your car. My brother had almost exactly that same setup and tried to bolt it on his Demon with a Control Freaks front end and it stuck out a bunch. Wheels and tires are now on Marketplace for sale.

The HDK must be narrower than the suspension my brother has.

He is now working on getting custom 18" wheels to get the tire inside the fender.

I’ve yet to turn the steering left/right at full lock, but I’ve read some issues on here about what you’re talking about. I think it’ll work but gotta wait to finish rebuilding my steering column first!

Mike

 

[DionR]

I’ve yet to turn the steering left/right at full lock, but I’ve read some issues on here about what you’re talking about. I think it’ll work but gotta wait to finish rebuilding my steering column first!

Mike

He couldn't even set the fender on with the 17" wheel let alone try and turn it.

He borrowed one of those backspacing measuring tools and bought some 235/40R18 tires. Same Nitto's you are talking about. Then we just swung the whole thing back and forth using whatever we could grab on the front suspension, he doesn't have a column in his car either. Found a pretty good interference with the US Cartools inner fender to firewall brace, he is going to have to notch those for tire clearance.

Make sure you are able to cycle the suspension up and down while you turn it lock to lock and check for clearances. I know the tire can clear the fender while at ride height and full lock both ways, but if you ever stuff the tire all the way up into the fender with it turned (like when turning into a store off the street), the tire can catch the fender and wreck havoc with your sheetmetal and paint. We wouldn't have seen the issue with the brace if we hadn't had the suspension fully compressed on my brother's car.

 

[DionR]

Does anyone have any recommendation on a rear disc kit? Since I"ll be narrowing my housing anyways I might get by with a less complicated kit rather than adapt the old drum brake flanges to disc brake?

Sorry, missed this question before.

I would look at Doctor Diff for a rear kit.

Brakes :: Rear

Should bolt right onto an 8.75 axle flange, lots of people have had good success with them. But only floating caliper kits (not sure if you want fixed multi-piston calipers or not).

 

[67Baccaruda]

He couldn't even set the fender on with the 17" wheel let alone try and turn it.

He borrowed one of those backspacing measuring tools and bought some 235/40R18 tires. Same Nitto's you are talking about. Then we just swung the whole thing back and forth using whatever we could grab on the front suspension, he doesn't have a column in his car either. Found a pretty good interference with the US Cartools inner fender to firewall brace, he is going to have to notch those for tire clearance.

Make sure you are able to cycle the suspension up and down while you turn it lock to lock and check for clearances. I know the tire can clear the fender while at ride height and full lock both ways, but if you ever stuff the tire all the way up into the fender with it turned (like when turning into a store off the street), the tire can catch the fender and wreck havoc with your sheetmetal and paint. We wouldn't have seen the issue with the brace if we hadn't had the suspension fully compressed on my brother's car.

Thank you for the insight about the USCT inner fender braces. Im going to hold off installing mine until I sort out my tire sizing. You may have just saved me a headache and a bunch of work.

 

[208Dart]

He couldn't even set the fender on with the 17" wheel let alone try and turn it.

He borrowed one of those backspacing measuring tools and bought some 235/40R18 tires. Same Nitto's you are talking about. Then we just swung the whole thing back and forth using whatever we could grab on the front suspension, he doesn't have a column in his car either. Found a pretty good interference with the US Cartools inner fender to firewall brace, he is going to have to notch those for tire clearance.

Make sure you are able to cycle the suspension up and down while you turn it lock to lock and check for clearances. I know the tire can clear the fender while at ride height and full lock both ways, but if you ever stuff the tire all the way up into the fender with it turned (like when turning into a store off the street), the tire can catch the fender and wreck havoc with your sheetmetal and paint. We wouldn't have seen the issue with the brace if we hadn't had the suspension fully compressed on my brother's car.

Dang! That definitely sounds like a wider setup. These fit very nicely about 1/2"-3/4" inside the front fender lips. I don't anticipate any issues but definitely been wrong before. If I have some severe suspension drop I can always adjust my bumpstops further to prevent any catastrophic damage but a great reminder! I'm hoping the wife got me my steering wheel for christmas so hopefully finishing up the steering here soon!

I got my wheels on order being drop shipped to weldcraft. No going back now! I'm hoping with narrowing my rearend+relocating my rear springs inward to the frame rails that I won't have to minitub with 295's. Some say impossible.... But I'm measuring 12.25" inside wheel well width so if everything is spaced perfectly I think it should be good to go. Minitub isn't the end of the world, just another weekend worth of work

Should be trailering it to my buddies shop new years weekend or the monday following. I'm tempted to order my spring relocate kit now and do it the same weekend and just clamp the factory axle to the springs without spring perches just to roll it on/off the trailer. Good idea?

Mike @ HCA

 

[DionR]

I got my wheels on order being drop shipped to weldcraft. No going back now! I'm hoping with narrowing my rearend+relocating my rear springs inward to the frame rails that I won't have to minitub with 295's. Some say impossible.... But I'm measuring 12.25" inside wheel well width so if everything is spaced perfectly I think it should be good to go. Minitub isn't the end of the world, just another weekend worth of work

Should be trailering it to my buddies shop new years weekend or the monday following. I'm tempted to order my spring relocate kit now and do it the same weekend and just clamp the factory axle to the springs without spring perches just to roll it on/off the trailer. Good idea?

As I recall, if you don't mini-tub it, moving the springs into the frame is a waste of time. A spring offset kit (Doctor Diff) will get the springs over enough that the inner wheel housing is what is in the way and moving the springs any more than that doesn't free up any more room.

As to what size tire you can run in the back of a Dart without mini-tubs, not sure. I would have to look around.

I don't see an issue with bolting a rear end to springs without perches, but never done it myself. Hard to see an issue with it though.

 

[DionR]

Couple of posts from Blu worth reading in this thread - when moving springs into longitudinal

Sounds like a 275 might be all you can get on a Dart without mini-tubs.

 

[392heminut]

Minitub isn't the end of the world, just another weekend worth of work.

I'm not sure about other insurance companies but Hagerty won't insure a classic car with minitubs. Just throwing that out there.

 

[208Dart]

Couple of posts from Blu worth reading in this thread - when moving springs into longitudinal

Sounds like a 275 might be all you can get on a Dart without mini-tubs.

I’ll check that out for sure thanks for the link! I’ve pretty much accepted the fact that it’s going to have to be done lol worth it though. Been waiting a long time to build this car, want it done right.

I'm not sure about other insurance companies but Hagerty won't insure a classic car with minitubs. Just throwing that out there.

Interesting! I never considered using hagerty, but I doubt it’s a standard question for other auto insurance companies. I surely won’t be volunteering the information lol

Mike

 

[392heminut]

I’ll check that out for sure thanks for the link! I’ve pretty much accepted the fact that it’s going to have to be done lol worth it though. Been waiting a long time to build this car, want it done right.

Interesting! I never considered using hagerty, but I doubt it’s a standard question for other auto insurance companies. I surely won’t be volunteering the information lol

Mike

With Hagerty you don't have a chance to volunteer it. When I insured my Cuda they specfically said that any kind of wheel tubs were not permitted and required pictures of the inside of the trunk and I am guessing it was for the purpose of determining that the rear wheel wells were stock.

 

[208Dart]

You guys got me thinking and im curious if you could help determine somethings. It’s obvious this car had some bodywork/paint done prior to me purchasing. The owner that had that work done died in a car crash so the next owner who I bought the car from didn’t have the complete history. For example the heater core area on the firewall was smoothed over.

Im wondering if these wheel wells have had some mods as well. Im showing an easy 12.25” capacity on the inner tubs at their narrowest.
Looks like wheel well lip might’ve been trimmed as well? Current tires are a 245 width and have 3/4” clearance on their section width to outter wheel well lip. And 2 3/4” clearance to inner wheel well. That gives me 3.5” of width to work with.

I don’t see how a 295 with a section width of 11.85” wouldn’t fit…? The math has the 295’s only 2” wider than the 245’s currently on the car.

Did the previous own do some more mods than what I’m seeing?

Mike

 

[208Dart]

Few more things buttoned up. Got my springs/shocks from HDK in yesterday and got them assembled and installed. Also got my column 90% back together and mounted. Waiting on new turn signal switch and steering wheel adapter to finish it out completely but got the old wheel on currently to test steering.

I had to turn down my 3/4dd steering shaft just a touch to clear header tube #3. Easy mod. Going to shorten the lock screw as well on the rack joint as it scrapes tube #1 on rotation. But no denying of header tubes required so I’m happy.

With the suspension at full droop (Jack stands on k member) I barely contact front sway bar at full lock.
With weight on suspension, I barely clear it. I’m not seeing any danger of hitting fenders in any situation so I’m going to call it good. I’ll likely sell these 225/45/17’s and upsize to the 225/50/17’s. Should gain me almost a full inch. Haven’t cranked the shocks up yet either.

Wheels should be to weld craft tomorrow. Be a few weeks before I get them back but plan is to order 295/40-18’s for the rear. This will add almost 1” of rear tire height however the hotchkis springs claim 1” lowering so it should equal out. If I relocate my springs/mini tub I’ll have the option of lowering the rear a bit further as well.
Ride height should be within 1” as pictured below but with the front up about 1”.

Next I’ve gotta pull the trans/engine and plan to take it to my buddies shop for the manual trans tunnel install/pedal swap.
Rebuild/seal the A833 and shorten input shaft.
Paint K member/front suspension.

Highly considering assembling the engine/trans on the K member outside the car then figuring out a good way to raise the car up and over the assembly…. Anybody got any advice for that? Thank you!

Mike

 

['Cuda_ragtop]

Nice Build!

Installing the engine and trans from below is the way to go.
We've had the engine in and out a few times this way. Test fitting, changed from 727 to 8HP70, Tunnel work, more test fitting, more mods... now waiting to get in for final paint.

Remove the valve cover studs that are closest to the passenger inner fender. Switched to aftermarket fasteners for the valve covers.

We also smoothed out some of the inner fender to gain a little more clearance from the passenger valve cover. It's pretty close on the passenger side.

USCT engine dolly/cart, USCT Lifting tool.
I added an extra square tube and wheels to the back for a little extra stability. 5 wheels instead of just 3.

 

[208Dart]

Nice Build!

Installing the engine and trans from below is the way to go.
We've had the engine in and out a few times this way. Test fitting, changed from 727 to 8HP70, Tunnel work, more test fitting, more mods... now waiting to get in for final paint.

Remove the valve cover studs that are closest to the passenger inner fender. Switched to aftermarket fasteners for the valve covers.

We also smoothed out some of the inner fender to gain a little more clearance from the passenger valve cover. It's pretty close on the passenger side.

USCT engine dolly/cart, USCT Lifting tool.
I added an extra square tube and wheels to the back for a little extra stability. 5 wheels instead of just 3.

View attachment 1716027707

That’s awesome. I’m thinking I could keep the engine bolted to the K frame with wheels still on. Rig up something for the upper control arms and build a frame/dolly for the transmission to rest/roll on.
I’m not seeing that lifting tool in the USCT website, any chance you have a link? Got any more pics of your build? Engine looks awesome!

 

['Cuda_ragtop]

That’s awesome. I’m thinking I could keep the engine bolted to the K frame with wheels still on. Rig up something for the upper control arms and build a frame/dolly for the transmission to rest/roll on.
I’m not seeing that lifting tool in the USCT website, any chance you have a link? Got any more pics of your build? Engine looks awesome!

USCT Lifting Tool hyperlink

Our Build Thread on FABO
G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project
I have shared a ****-ton of pictures in a Google Photos Project Album. Link is in my Sig.
Body work complete and in epoxy primer. Ready for some test fitting.

Narrowed B-Body 8-3/4, Hotchkis Leaf springs, Dr. Diff relocation kit. 17x9 Year One Mopar Rallye Wheels.

About 50 feet from the back patio to my workshop/tent across exposed aggregate...

But we made it.

Making it up and learning as I go...
Hiding the AC lines for the Classic Auto Air in the inner fender.

For more check out our build thread:
G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project
Car is currently sitting on the trailer waiting to go in for final paint.

 

[208Dart]

USCT Lifting Tool hyperlink

Our Build Thread on FABO
G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project
I have shared a ****-ton of pictures in a Google Photos Project Album. Link is in my Sig.
Body work complete and in epoxy primer. Ready for some test fitting.
View attachment 1716028059

Narrowed B-Body 8-3/4, Hotchkis Leaf springs, Dr. Diff relocation kit. 17x9 Year One Mopar Rallye Wheels.
View attachment 1716028060

About 50 feet from the back patio to my workshop/tent across exposed aggregate...
View attachment 1716028058

But we made it.
View attachment 1716028061

Making it up and learning as I go...
Hiding the AC lines for the Classic Auto Air in the inner fender.
View attachment 1716028062

For more check out our build thread:
G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project
Car is currently sitting on the trailer waiting to go in for final paint.

That’s fantastic! Thanks for posting/sharing. Going to be wicked when done.

Tomorrow I gotta play hooky from work a little bit. Gotta pull the seats out, trans out, and engine back out. Borrowing a friends enclosed trailer Thursday and will be hauling to my buddies shop Thursday. Plan is to have the welding done on the trans tunnel by Friday night. We’re also going to make our own lifting mechanism to hoist the front end up. Got a good idea for it, I’d it works I’ll share. Cost is about $50 in steel and some minor welding.

I got my new steering wheel and adapter installed. Super happy with how it looks. If anyone guesses what the wheel is styled after they’ll probably want to slap me
After trans tunnel is done I’ll be ordering spring relocate kit from RMS (can figure why USCT price is 3.5X more expensive?) and will be fabbing my own minitubs. Very much looking forward to having that work complete and getting my rear tires/wheels back so I can measure for my rear axle build.

This is definitely the fun/exciting part. Major steps and items being checked off. I’m sure I won’t be so thrilled when I start rewiring the entire chassis or running the heat/cool system!