Ok so lets really talk K-members here Folks

[The_night_rider]

You can take a bunch of metal to a welding shop and they will weld it together for you. Then what???

Question is, do you and johnparts have the engineering and development to have a unit that performs as good or better than stock in regard to things like: ackerman, turning radius, roll center distribution under roll and jounce, caster change under compression/rebound WITH turning, anti dive, camber change, bump steer, SAI, etc, etc....

It cannot be that hard. The shops I spoke to have years of experience plus they all have done work on 10 second cars. They all say the same thing to me, the reason it costs so much is because it is mopar. Plain and simple. You can run it to me as many ways as you want it. All I want is the k frame. I dont want all the suspension parts now.

RMS sales might jump through the roof if they broke down the kits for their customers. I am a college student on a severe build budget. I cant spend 4,000+ on a whole system for my car. I can however over time build what I want.


You can do it cheap and sell if for the same like Magnum force. Or you can actually out source it to local shops and find out, hey wait a minute, RMS dosent have a magic dust they sprinkle on their K Frames.

Hear Hear......Hurumphhhhhhh....:read2:

I didn't get a hurumphhhhh outta that guy!

 

[GMachineDartGT]

My feeling is that a rack is nice, like Steve said, but for handling applications and durability, the built stock setup is good. My car is track worthy, rides good for the spring rate, and is very durable as original. The parts cost money, period, but when you go the route I did and spend lots of time on the details, the results are very good. IMHO a rack is not worth 5K, thats all.

 

[autoxcuda]

It cannot be that hard.

Seriously??

The shops I spoke to have years of experience plus they all have done work on 10 second cars.

Straight line guys have much simpler needs for front suspension geometry. They aren't concerned with Roll centers, camber and caster changes for cornering. Go to someone that builds Circle Track or Road Race cars like Lefthander or someone and ask them to design up a front suspension for $600.

They all say the same thing to me, the reason it costs so much is because it is mopar. Plain and simple. You can run it to me as many ways as you want it. All I want is the k frame. I don't want all the suspension parts now.

The upper control arms and the lower control arms steering linkage are designed off the K-member mounting pickup points. Unless you are just copying a stock K-member and using T-bars. At that point just modify your existing K-member for the header and motor clearance you need, make motor mounts for it, and save money and effort. Wasn't that the plan from the get go?

 

[autoxcuda]

IMHO a rack is not worth 5K, thats all.

I've had some $5K racks. And they were nice. But I didn't pay for them.

...Wait, are we still talking about cars?

 

[Purple Haze]

Just wondering, at 5K+ do they offer financing?

 

[abodyjoe]

I

It cannot be that hard. The shops I spoke to have years of experience plus they all have done work on 10 second cars. They all say the same thing to me, the reason it costs so much is because it is mopar. Plain and simple. You can run it to me as many ways as you want it. All I want is the k frame. I dont want all the suspension parts now.

RMS sales might jump through the roof if they broke down the kits for their customers. I am a college student on a severe build budget. I cant spend 4,000+ on a whole system for my car. I can however over time build what I want.


You can do it cheap and sell if for the same like Magnum force. Or you can actually out source it to local shops and find out, hey wait a minute, RMS dosent have a magic dust they sprinkle on their K Frames.





I didn't get a hurumphhhhh outta that guy!

A 10 second drag strip car is way way different then a street car. I have two friends with older drag car dusters. Both have tube front ends in them. Both older set up's. They are straight as an arrow in a straight line but turn the wheel and you should see how far the tire leans over. It works perfect in a straight line but sure as hell will be scare in a turn. Straight Line and a street car are two different animals.


You can buy an alter-k. Piece by piece over time if you want. Call them.


Have you researched the magnumforce front end? Can't even compare that to an alter-k.

 

[USCG CHARGER]

I'm just curious fellas... but do you guys know what the term supply and demand means? Supply and demand is an economic model of price determination in a market. It concludes that in a competitive market, the unit price for a particular good will vary until it settles at a point where the quantity demanded by consumers (at current price) will equal the quantity supplied by producers (at current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium of price and quantity.
The four basic laws of supply and demand are:
If demand increases and supply remains unchanged then higher equilibrium price and unchanged quantity.
If demand decreases and supply remains the same then lower equilibrium price and unchanged quantity.
If supply increases and demand remains unchanged then lower equilibrium price and higher quantity.
If supply decreases and demand remains the same then higher price and lower quantity.

I have a MBA and I can't for the life of me figure out what laws CAP and RMS are following here. Can someone turn this light on?

JAson

 

[inkjunkie]

You can buy an alter-k. Piece by piece over time if you want. Call them.

Now that is the best news I have heard in a while. I just assumed, yeah yeah, I know what that means, that because it was only listed as a complete unit that was the only way Bill sold it.......

 

[d5667]

So your saying that price is directly related to quality? So all those Chinese spindles in the alter k kits must be crappy then huh because I'm sure they were shopped around a price point just like most companies do. Oh and the entire US army, navy, airforce, and NASA vehicles must suck too since they are built by the lowest bidder.

Price is definately related to quality,that is the reason for Chrysler 300 vs Neon.One is a disposable car and the other is a well built car.Jerry Bickel is 10 miles from me,I have been there quite a bit.But I never entertained the thought of having him or his help build something for me.Not that he couldn't do it,but to do the math-set up a jig and build a one off system,I would be better of to spend the 5000.Good luck on your endeavor,I hope it works out for you,but it sounds like some of your future customers are talking 400.00 and yes here is another HARRRRRUUUUUMMMPPPPHHHH

 

[The_night_rider]

I

A 10 second drag strip car is way way different then a street car. I have two friends with older drag car dusters. Both have tube front ends in them. Both older set up's. They are straight as an arrow in a straight line but turn the wheel and you should see how far the tire leans over. It works perfect in a straight line but sure as hell will be scare in a turn. Straight Line and a street car are two different animals.


You can buy an alter-k. Piece by piece over time if you want. Call them.


Have you researched the magnumforce front end? Can't even compare that to an alter-k.

Yes I have researched the magnum force front end, pure **** from what I can read. I have no doubt the alterktion is a quality piece. I actually tried to purchase the alterktion piece by piece but to no avail, the best Bill could offer at the time was knocking out the components I didn't need right away. Must have been a slow month, it happens. It still came to 32something. Still not going to help me.

 

[johnparts]

Price is definately related to quality,that is the reason for Chrysler 300 vs Neon.One is a disposable car and the other is a well built car.Jerry Bickel is 10 miles from me,I have been there quite a bit.But I never entertained the thought of having him or his help build something for me.Not that he couldn't do it,but to do the math-set up a jig and build a one off system,I would be better of to spend the 5000.Good luck on your endeavor,I hope it works out for you,but it sounds like some of your future customers are talking 400.00 and yes here is another HARRRRRUUUUUMMMPPPPHHHH

Well I have seen Mr Bickle's work and it is amazing but you are talking about a guy who builds 25k cages all day again he is amazing and you pay for the demand he commands. I never mentioned a $400 price point but I would never be able to justify a 4-5 thousand dollar product unless it came equipped with a reach around attachment.

 

[needsaresto]

Well I have seen Mr Bickle's work and it is amazing but you are talking about a guy who builds 25k cages all day again he is amazing and you pay for the demand he commands. I never mentioned a $400 price point but I would never be able to justify a 4-5 thousand dollar product unless it came equipped with a reach around attachment.

Lol,you can guarantee that Bill's attachment will cost another 5k,lol.

Im like you johnsparts. I want the quality but dont feel I should have to pay 3x what a mustang guy pays. We get raped enough on parts. As SOON as you say it's a mopar the price goe's thru the roof. even if it;s a freaking minivan.It's a really retarded attitude.

One thing for sure. If you could produce what RMS makes for less $$,Id buy it from you. I could see a few advantages to having a kframe that uses stock components,like more header room,oil pan clearance,greater strength and chassis stiffness,better handling etc etc. I'd go for a K frame like that. As for the extra weight of the stock components,it aint worth 5 g's to remove it.There are much better and cheaper weight savings to be had.

 

[johnparts]

Well thank you needsaresto. I know there will be a ton of opposition to what I'm trying to do here. I'm just a regular guy and I have 3 kids 2 dogs and a wife I live in an apartment and have to borrow my garage space from my buddy Todd. I'm not trying to get rich here and if I only help 2-3 guys get a nice thought out and engineered set-up that doesn't cost an arm and a leg then I will have accomplished something.

 

[The_night_rider]

Well thank you needsaresto. I know there will be a ton of opposition to what I'm trying to do here. I'm just a regular guy and I have 3 kids 2 dogs and a wife I live in an apartment and have to borrow my garage space from my buddy Todd. I'm not trying to get rich here and if I only help 2-3 guys get a nice thought out and engineered set-up that doesn't cost an arm and a leg then I will have accomplished something.

That's what keeps the hobby fun and affordable.

 

[USCG CHARGER]

If you want a quality product look at my thread tubular K frame or chrome moly K frame.. This is the same K frame John parts is discussing about and will be doing some measurements for a III Gen Hemi.... I should be getting this K frame in the very near future. I have been working very close on a daily basics with Tory (Tshell) discussion options, affordability and most importantly quality. Tory is very passionate about this K frame a looks forward to bringing something completely new to the competition with competitive prices.

JAson

 

[Cliffjumper]

Just gotta save like everyone else does. You make it sound like anyone that has bought an alter-k is rockafeller or something. Some of us buy and sell parts along pick up some overtime at work to save to afford parts. That's what I do. And ill bet there are more 10 year project cars out there with stock suspensions out there then alter- equipped ones.

I may be going back a few pages and days with this but Joe has a point. I don't live outside of my means. Buying cars and parts with credit is over for me.
Now, my 68 Cuda is a "ten year" project (thats the way I want it) and I dont plan on ever replacing the K. I'm in the prosess of cleaning it all up. It's got a swapped 440 on a SB K. I love torsion bars and Mopar Performance makes pairs for your application. I have made mention of CAP in a few of my past posts but I've heard horror stories and was veered away. If I were to be looking to go 8.50 down the 1/4, I would purchase an Alterkation. If I wanted to make killer passes aroung the Nurburgring, I'd buy an Alterkation. If I wanted to build a Mopar Showcar for Hot Import Nights I'd buy a MagnumForce. From what I have learned in discussions with Mopar fans is Alterkation from RMS is the way to go.

If you really want to be different and save some coin talk to your local chassis shop or welder. There is no middleman.

The only way for us to get these tubular k frames at a "cheap", "mass-produced" way is to sell the idea to China, Japan or India and have them make them for us (sound familiar?). Lets keep our hobby American.

 

[needsaresto]

Johnsparts; Your WELCOME!! Us little guys have to stick together and help each other or we end up paying crazy brainless money prices.

I have often thought about building a tubing bender and building roll cages,headers etc for my Dart..it would be somewhat helpfull for me yes but even better if I could pattern it all,build it on a jig and help some other guys for cheap.Call me crazy but if we could start a trend it would be a beautiful thing !

 

[USCG CHARGER]

Again small vendors need to learn about supply and demand... it still just blows my mind on the firm not staying in live with the curve. The law of demand states that, if all other factors remain equal, the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good. In other words, the higher the price, the lower the quantity demanded. The amount of a good that buyers purchase at a higher price is less because as the price of a good goes up, so does the opportunity cost of buying that good. As a result, people will naturally avoid buying a product that will force them to forgo the consumption of something else they value more.

 

[HemiDenny]

Hi guys....good thread.....I just wanted to answer Johnparts that I'm pretty sure RMS modifies a stock (front steer) Mustang II spindle to slightly increase ackerman and to correct(adjust) the bump steer for his design.....keep in mind I've been called "the fountain of mis-information"....I personally think the RMS unit is great(although I like to keep the front wheels tucked in as far as possible)...he debuted a torsion bar unit at the Nats that was above suspesion.I'm really surprised no one mentions it...no coilovers,no relocating upper shock mount...nice.....but of course "pricey".I 'm not sure who brought it up...but I agree the biggest issue in pricing a "modified" front end piece is "liability insurance"....sure would hate to lose the farm just to save someone some bucks. It's unfortune you can't change over with just a K-frame...sure would made it cheaper...and easier.

 

[d5667]

I may be going back a few pages and days with this but Joe has a point. I don't live outside of my means. Buying cars and parts with credit is over for me.
Now, my 68 Cuda is a "ten year" project (thats the way I want it) and I dont plan on ever replacing the K. I'm in the prosess of cleaning it all up. It's got a swapped 440 on a SB K. I love torsion bars and Mopar Performance makes pairs for your application. I have made mention of CAP in a few of my past posts but I've heard horror stories and was veered away. If I were to be looking to go 8.50 down the 1/4, I would purchase an Alterkation. If I wanted to make killer passes aroung the Nurburgring, I'd buy an Alterkation. If I wanted to build a Mopar Showcar for Hot Import Nights I'd buy a MagnumForce. From what I have learned in discussions with Mopar fans is Alterkation from RMS is the way to go.

If you really want to be different and save some coin talk to your local chassis shop or welder. There is no middleman.

The only way for us to get these tubular k frames at a "cheap", "mass-produced" way is to sell the idea to China, Japan or India and have them make them for us (sound familiar?). Lets keep our hobby American.

I'm with you cliff,I built my own,sure wasn't cheap-lots of hours,lots of grinding,welding and LOTS of cussing.Just remember guy's,when you are doing all these great and wonderful feats.You gotta eat,you gotta have equipment,you gotta have a building,and you gotta have a better mousetrap!

 

[SirDan]

I love the idea of the alter-k-tion and stuff but im thinking i could possibly make my own and do it better for alot less money. The other good side is you can make it how you want it.

yeah you could spend 10 grand on equipment but you either already have it or need it for other stuff down the road. So im not sure you can count equipment. a building? well i think most people aren't going to erect a building to build one k frame. Now time spent, hell as long as your not taking time off work to do it you haven't lost any money.

Also doesn't it sound cool when you tell other mopar lovers "yeah i built that myself!" I guess you guys that built your own can say you think you know what it cost but for one idk what you consider a cost. You could be considering heat,rent or beer as a cost. Im not trying to sound like a jerk or anything im just trying to be optimistic here.

 

[TShell]

The more I read, the more I learn.....I realize not everyone will like everything that's put out there. I've put alot of thought and effort into this K Member and I feel it's quite comparable to others on the market today. Can things be improved, of course! This was something I made for myself and thought there might be other mopars guys interested, that's why I'm sharing it. For those of you that are interested, I am willing to hear and work anyone interested, for those of you not interested, so be it. Wouldn't it be a boring world if we all had the same ideas, thoughts.....and CARS!

Tory

 

[turbodart68]

Then you need to compare apples to apples. "control arm and what not" are expensive. And Mopar ones with T-bar provisions are more expensive to make that the Chevy A-arm with spring perch bucket. Two Mopar LCA should cost about the same or more than the custom K-member in regards to manuf costs.

But I get your general idea. And the cost difference is due to volume.

Next question is why do you feel the need for a custom K-member that has the T-bar arrangement. You're not going to get the header clearance gains from removing the T-bars nor better selection and cheaper springs.

The weight loss is mostly due to the rack. I see the going to the rack as the biggest gain, by far, in the tubular K's that retain T-bars. All that money for a rack.

Racks are nice, lightweight and precise. But the rack alone is not the Second Comming of Christ in terms of road feel and response.

These K frame threads are funny. You would think we are talking about Edelbrock heads or something. Obviously no one k-frame will serve everyone perfectly. Here is food for thought though. Chrysler spent a lot of money to engineer the T-bar suspension. In my opinion it was light years ahead of its time. It has been proven again and again to be a killer drag race and road race suspension. With that being said its also heavy and isnt perfect. I for one want a light weight version of it but I want my torsion bars. The factory chassis wasn't designed for the shock mount to take the entire weight of the front end. The RMS kit is nice and beefy and has proven to be one of the best out there, however it looks like it doesnt save much weight over the factory set up. I built my own K frame out of chromoly and with the rack its wy lighter than factory even with the torsion bars. A torsion bar doesnt weigh that much and if you look at the weight of a coilover there isn't much difference and the weight of the torsion bar is spread out over a few feet and is farther back than the shock mount thus moving the weight rearward in the chassis. All this talk about ackermann and lean in and out is fine and good but its not voodoo and can be engineered pretty easily. Any time you put a lot of caster into a front end they will lean heavily when turned.

 

[autoxcuda]

These K frame threads are funny. You would think we are talking about Edelbrock heads or something. Obviously no one k-frame will serve everyone perfectly. Here is food for thought though. Chrysler spent a lot of money to engineer the T-bar suspension. In my opinion it was light years ahead of its time. It has been proven again and again to be a killer drag race and road race suspension. With that being said its also heavy and isnt perfect. I for one want a light weight version of it but I want my torsion bars. The factory chassis wasn't designed for the shock mount to take the entire weight of the front end. The RMS kit is nice and beefy and has proven to be one of the best out there, however it looks like it doesnt save much weight over the factory set up. I built my own K frame out of chromoly and with the rack its wy lighter than factory even with the torsion bars. A torsion bar doesnt weigh that much and if you look at the weight of a coilover there isn't much difference and the weight of the torsion bar is spread out over a few feet and is farther back than the shock mount thus moving the weight rearward in the chassis. All this talk about ackermann and lean in and out is fine and good but its not voodoo and can be engineered pretty easily. Any time you put a lot of caster into a front end they will lean heavily when turned.

Did you have manual steering before. Wonder what the weight difference was from a manual mopar box including centerlink, idler, pitman, tie rods, to a manual rack??

Anyone know how much more weight a typical power steering rack and pinion is from a manual rack?

Would be interesting to have some gun drilled T-bars. Yours might not weigh much, but my 1.14" T-bar are pretty heafty and weigh double what a /6 T-bar does.

Would also like to see a power steering box with 12:1 internal ratio and weighed 1/2 of a stock Mopar steering box.

 

[superdart]

Personally I like the tube front ends, but there is no way I can justify the cost for what you get. I did a complete rebuild on mine and upgraded everything along the way. Is it perfect? No...Is it perfectly road-able? Hell-Yeah.

I agree with the "it's too expensive" camp. They have already done the R&D...the money is spent. They should price the component to get them a reasonable per-unit profit after all expenses, and amortize the R&D costs over a given number of units. Once that number is hit your profit margins go up and the price wasn't changed.