So this new minumum wage thing?

[hemichuck]

Ok sales tax and payroll tax so your customers and employees paid their taxes.
And companies get tax incentives ah so hard done by

My company never got 1cent of tax incentives and most never do. Maybe big huge corporations like Walmart, or auto manufacturers or multi billion dollar corporations get tax incentives. in case you don't understand what that means, and I'm pretty sure you don't, it means they get a reduced tax rate, which means they don't pay as much corporate tax, it don't mean they get out of paying taxes, it just means that for a few years the government lets them pay less in return for creating jobs that create another tax stream. most smaller companies, and by that I mean companies making less than $500 million a year aren't getting these incentives. I suggest you take some business and accounting courses and sit in on a few planning and zoning meetings and maybe you will get a clue about what's involved in running a business and you will also find out how little assistance the government is willing to give.

 

[273]

My company never got 1cent of tax incentives and most never do. Maybe big huge corporations like Walmart, or auto manufacturers or multi billion dollar corporations get tax incentives. in case you don't understand what that means, and I'm pretty sure you don't, it means they get a reduced tax rate, which means they don't pay as much corporate tax, it don't mean they get out of paying taxes, it just means that for a few years the government lets them pay less in return for creating jobs that create another tax stream. most smaller companies, and by that I mean companies making less than $500 million a year aren't getting these incentives. I suggest you take some business and accounting courses and sit in on a few planning and zoning meetings and maybe you will get a clue about what's involved in running a business and you will also find out how little assistance the government is willing to give.

Not trying to dis you or the company you built. It's the problem with these conversations people get lumped into groups.

I drive cab for a living use to make $1200 a week last few years was down to $800 now fluctuates between $300-600 far from poor far from minimum wage but I do classify my self in this category. But I do drive these people you talk about daily its just a lot of hard working people trying to get by.

There's no reason a place like Walmart and the like can't pay a living wage. If not then we need to design a whole new system.

 

[chryslerfat]

Ok sales tax and payroll tax so your customers and employees paid their taxes.
And companies get tax incentives ah so hard done by

A little info. Payroll tax is something paid by the employer over and above what the employee pays on their stub. The employer sees this cost not the employee.

 

[Ddaddy]

I have been saying for years now that we are going to end up with a society that has read all about it, but doesn't actually know how to do anything.

Beside the point though.
Train a new person that got hired making more than you do after you have been there for years and have climbed the company ladder only to have someone new that you are responsible for training placed a rung above you financially.
They make more than you do, although they have none of the certifications, training or experience you do.

Like my Son said, "I didn't go there every day for three years to get certifications, I went there every day for three years to make money".
"The certs were necessary to make more money, but the new person gets all the benefits of the money and didn't have to do any of the work to get there".

It's a real world case of "being born on third base" and it's having a destructive effect on good employees.

That's the pain of raising the minimum wage. It raises the very bottom of the working class but takes a bite out of the tier just above it.

While it's not immediately fair, it does eventually work it's way through the pay scale and become more even later on. There is no gain without pain, and someone has to feel it...for a while.

Someone with the Certs will eventually make more than those without it that have suddenly had their "ship raised in the water". Sometimes the best way to get that gain is to move on and compete for a new job with Certs in hand.

Life isn't always fair, but those at the bottom do need a lift...and those just above them will eventually find their ships rising in the water too. While not immediately comfortable, it just takes time for it to all work out.

BTW, I started my career making $3.10/hr and now pull $325/hr consulting through hard work and building my experience. Many times in my career there were those around me making more than me because of timing or circumstance...but I have long since passed all of them now.

It's all about making the most of the education (certs included) and the skills you have...and never losing sight of the future you want.

Don't despair the moment...see the future...and make it yours!

 

[273]

A little info. Payroll tax is something paid by the employer over and above what the employee pays on their stub. The employer sees this cost not the employee.

Well here the employer collects payroll tax and such from the employees wages "deduction" and yes there are cost charged to the employer too.

I know you guys think I'm stupid and a rambler. I am a rambler but not stupid I just see things in very different ways I see things big picture not little details.

 

[hemichuck]

Not trying to dis you or the company you built. It's the problem with these conversations people get lumped into groups.

I drive cab for a living use to make $1200 a week last few years was down to $800 now fluctuates between $300-600 far from poor far from minimum wage but I do classify my self in this category. But I do drive these people you talk about daily its just a lot of hard working people trying to get by.

There's no reason a place like Walmart and the like can't pay a living wage. If not then we need to design a whole new system.

Walmart is one of the richest companies in the world, they have the fifth largest economy in the world, what Walmart can or should do has nothing at all to do with increasing the minimum wage. The problem is that when you target these huge corporations with these ignorant laws the ones that are affected are the small companies that can't afford to increase their payroll by 25% or more. You better believe that Walmart don't care because they will just bump everything up a couple of percentage points to cover the additional expense. It's all of the other businesses out there that are hanging on by a thread that will get put out of business because the laws will pertain to everyone, not just Walmart. Go down to any of your local mom and pop businesses and ask them what this kind of ignorant legislation would do to them. The Walton family could buy Canada without ever breaking their checking account. It's not about what Walmart pays.

 

[chryslerfat]

Well here the employer collects payroll tax and such from the employees wages "deduction" and yes there are cost charged to the employer too.

I know you guys think I'm stupid and a rambler. I am a rambler but not stupid I just see things in very different ways I see things big picture not little details.

In the states it is different. I guess the easiest way to show you is figure it like this. An Employee shows 50 thousand a year in income gross before any taxes or etc. but the total cost to the employer for that employee including payroll tax, unemployment, workers comp. ins.,medical ins. is 70 thousand.

 

[72Valiant4Door]

The issue is the ultimately the introduction of force or violence into an area of non-violent human interaction. It morally corrupt to force people to not be able to do something which in itself is voluntary and peaceful. And YES, intrinsically it is force/ violence, no matter how you spin it.

Paying someone to do something is voluntary in almost every single case. You have to utilize free will and choice to do work, or to pay someone to do work.

This seems overly philosophical but is actually what causes the ripple of economic inequality.

Suddenly you have limited choice. Small jobs, careers or positions will altogether simply disappear, as now they are no longer economically feasible to pay someone to do. This usually reduces entry level positions first, which makes it more difficult to enter the work force in many many fields.

Many places will now be forced to have to combine tasks into higher level positions. Engineers will be sweeping floors, instead of paying a young person or retiree to come in a few hours to help out... which will then limit exposure and access to numerous jobs, for example.

Costs will then rise across the board to take up the slack for the increase in the general increase in cost of production... which will of course impact the lower sectors, incur additional policies or economic environment to generate currency inflation, which will decrease the value of the local money. This will lead to the continual perceived need to AGAIN raise the forced minimum pay rate.

Yes the marketplace will appear to eventually "even" out but the negative effects will be in place and not just go away. Technology and globalism will also be increasingly used to swallow up the now no longer economically feasible positions or tasks, pushing even more people out of the work forces. It causes economic instability and market volatility.

The effects of this force or violence is all around us in the economic playing field we live in, everyday.

 

[greymouser7]

Inflation is built into our system they just try to control it's rate. Canada tried a zero inflation system years ago and killed our economy lots of people lost there jobs and houses just for an economic experiment so the rich could stay richer.

One of the main controllers is underemployment and unemployment. But really if you work 40 plus hours a week shouldn't be able to make a living wage ?

And if not and the system is inherently rigged against the average why should we want to part take in that system designed for the few by the few ?

Despite the rich getting richer bit...
You will NOT be able to afford a living after working a 40 hour work week.

After NAFTA, inflation, & a tremendous loss of the manufacturing industry within the U.S., you compete with third world countries' ability to manufacture goods. Those people work for currency that is less than pennies. MSN had an article last summer how this Indian couple would tie their child to a rock while they went to work during the day. Some of us compete with slave labor. I buy $12 shoes at Ross, I support slave, foreign labor. They work for less.

The protective tariffs of the USA are gone.

It appears to only be getting worse as time progresses in many labor fields. Electronic ordering menu's at the fast food restaurants, foreign call centers, foreign parts, foreign steel, foreign assembly of certain portions of American vehicle manufacturing, foreign import of crops, foreigners fulfilling the educated jobs like IT positions here in the USA...

Our way of life has been forever changed by globalization and will continue. The life we knew is becoming extinct.

& Too many work for the government-including me.

 

[273]

Walmart is one of the richest companies in the world, they have the fifth largest economy in the world, what Walmart can or should do has nothing at all to do with increasing the minimum wage. The problem is that when you target these huge corporations with these ignorant laws the ones that are affected are the small companies that can't afford to increase their payroll by 25% or more. You better believe that Walmart don't care because they will just bump everything up a couple of percentage points to cover the additional expense. It's all of the other businesses out there that are hanging on by a thread that will get put out of business because the laws will pertain to everyone, not just Walmart. Go down to any of your local mom and pop businesses and ask them what this kind of ignorant legislation would do to them. The Walton family could buy Canada without ever breaking their checking account. It's not about what Walmart pays.

That why I'm for the dismantling of franchise stores and chain stores there money funnels that kill local economies with way too much power no business should be bigger than a government.
I thought of writing a book about it before.

 

[Ddaddy]

The issue is the ultimately the introduction of force or violence into an area of non-violent human interaction. It morally corrupt to force people to not be able to do something which in itself is voluntary and peaceful. And YES, intrinsically it is force/ violence, no matter how you spin it.

Paying someone to do something is voluntary in almost every single case. You have to utilize free will and choice to do work, or to pay someone to do work.

This seems overly philosophical but is actually what causes the ripple of economic inequality.

Suddenly you have limited choice. Small jobs, careers or positions will altogether simply disappear, as now they are no longer economically feasible to pay someone to do. This usually reduces entry level positions first, which makes it more difficult to enter the work force in many many fields.

Many places will now be forced to have to combine tasks into higher level positions. Engineers will be sweeping floors, instead of paying a young person or retiree to come in a few hours to help out... which will then limit exposure and access to numerous jobs, for example.

Costs will then rise across the board to take up the slack for the increase in the general increase in cost of production... which will of course impact the lower sectors, incur additional policies or economic environment to generate currency inflation, which will decrease the value of the local money. This will lead to the continual perceived need to AGAIN raise the forced minimum pay rate.

Yes the marketplace will appear to eventually "even" out but the negative effects will be in place and not just go away. Technology and globalism will also be increasingly used to swallow up the now no longer economically feasible positions or tasks, pushing even more people out of the work forces. It causes economic instability and market volatility.

The effects of this force or violence is all around us in the economic playing field we live in, everyday.

Ummm...no.

Economics doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.

The minimum wage was $3.35 in 1982 (equal to $7.25 now). To raise it to $10 hr makes it only slightly better than it was 35 years ago before the days of modern technology and the cost associated with it.

Tell me how that is force or violence on society for those at the bottom to have just a little more. Feasible positions? BS! The cost of having someone sweep the floors now is just slightly more than it was 35 years ago at the bottom pay rate. There is ZERO increased cost of production in any significant manufacturing job because they do not pay the minimum wage and aren't affected.

Yeah, let's keep the minimum wage as low as possible so that working Americans at the bottom can work for the lowest pay possible so that prices don't rise for those that can afford the goods and services that they can't.

Brilliant.

 

[72Valiant4Door]

Ummm...no.

Economics doesn't work that way. Never has and never will.
...

Tell me how that is force or violence on society for those at the bottom to have just a little more.

first, that is illogical argumentation. i didn't not say that people at the lower end of the wage scale receiving more, is violence. You most likely are misunderstanding me... and to be honest, why I am having this conversation on a Mopar forum is a better question.

yes, economics... or the production, consumption or exchanging of goods and services, works just that way. People exchange goods or services based on their perceived self interest. it isn't hard to extrapolate cause and effect of a given action. the examples of what we are discussing are all around us.

legislation utilize government force to enact their code, this uses the governments monopoly on the use of violence to force people to do something. if you break the law, you can be physically punished. if you resist the law, violence will incur. ie: the minimum wage law FORCES businesses to comply with the code at the risk ultimately of violence.

I am not arguing, by the way, with the increase in labor rates... that is an inevitable result of inflation. And I am also not saying that wages are keeping up with the cost of living or inflation. BUT raising restrictions of voluntary human interactions has its blowback.

 

[Ddaddy]

Walmart is one of the richest companies in the world, they have the fifth largest economy in the world.

No, they don't. Walmart had total sales in 2015 of 482 billion making them the 150th largest economy in the World, just above Fiji.
They also made net profits of 14.7 billion which is just 3% of total sales.

Imagine a local Mom and Pop making just 3% profit on sales. They'd be out of business.

 

[Ddaddy]

first, that is illogical argumentation. i didn't not say that people at the lower end of the wage scale receiving more, is violence. You most likely are misunderstanding me... and to be honest, why I am having this conversation on a Mopar forum is a better question.

yes, economics... or the production, consumption or exchanging of goods and services, works just that way. People exchange goods or services based on their perceived self interest. it isn't hard to extrapolate cause and effect of a given action. the examples of what we are discussing are all around us.

legislation utilize government force to enact their code, this uses the governments monopoly on the use of violence to force people to do something. if you break the law, you can be physically punished. if you resist the law, violence will incur. ie: the minimum wage law FORCES businesses to comply with the code at the risk ultimately of violence.

I am not arguing, by the way, with the increase in labor rates... that is an inevitable result of inflation. And I am also not saying that wages are keeping up with the cost of living or inflation. BUT raising restrictions of voluntary human interactions has its blowback.

The failure to comply with paying minimum wage does not come with any sort of punishments that are violent. Your logic makes no sense.

 

[72Valiant4Door]

The failure to comply with paying minimum wage does not come with any sort of punishments that are violent. Your logic makes no sense.

I understand you do not think that is the case.

 

[Ddaddy]

The application of Macro economics to a minimum wage raise does not make sense. The minimum wage is just that, the minimum.

The reality is that only 4.3% of workers make the minimum wage. To raise it by 25% only results in a net of 0.1% change in the bottom line costs across all businesses.

It's a micro economics issue and only a little one at that. It has nearly no impact on the Macro economics of America. Only the very smallest and very largest businesses will feel it. The very smallest ones that find a raise in the minimum wage fatal are likely already so close to the edge that they were destined to fail anyway. The very largest ones like Walmart that find their profit margin reduced from 3% to 2.8% can just live with it or raise prices by 0.2%. Ok, Cheerios now cost $3.85 instead of $3.78...

 

[273]

The failure to comply with paying minimum wage does not come with any sort of punishments that are violent. Your logic makes no sense.

Just like you only own things cause of the threat of rule and law. Not that we perceive that on a daily basis that is the basis of our society. Before our social contract it was your ability to defend what is yours.

 

[skep419]

Girlfriend got fired for customer complaints. She was a debt collector. (Sure the people she was calling were more than happy to hear from her). They didn't record the calls so the customer was always right. She was always at the top and received bonuses because of it.

They tried not to pay unemployment but she fought it and won. It took a month of back and forth to finally win. Wonder how many other employees they pulled that on. Sure over half just found different crappy jobs right away.

Seems as though everyone has worked there at one time or another. Horrible place to work so I've heard but decent pay and awesome vacation.

She was miserable every day and I took the brunt of it.

Around the time of her first check found out baby number 3 was on the way.

Turned off the cable, put the car up for sale,etc.

She didn't have a care in the world and kept saying it would be fine.

There was no way that if she got a different job that it would even pay for daycare. Let alone finding another one because we had to pull the kids out. (Waiting lists everywhere).

Stay at home mom it is.

Which leads me to what I think a lot of the population is doing.


1. If you’re a man, don’t get married
2. Have a couple kids
3. Use your mom’s address for your mail
4. Buy a house
5. Rent your house to your girlfriend and your two kids
6. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for the rent on the 3 bedroom home
7. Have your girlfriend sign up for Obamacare
8. Your girlfriend gets to go to college free as a single mother
9. She also gets $400 a month for food stamps
10. She gets a free cell phone
11. She also gets a cash grant to help pay for heating costs
12. Move into your house with her, but keep your mom’s address for your mail
13. Each of you can claim one child on your taxes so now you both get to claim head of household credit ($1295)
14. Have your girlfriend get apermanent disability for “marked difficulties maintaining concentration” or having a “back pain.”


She landed a sweet part time job M,W,F. She will go to work when I get home.

 

[GeorgeH]

Girlfriend got fired for customer complaints. She was a debt collector. Sure there were more than happy to hear from her. They didn't record the calls so the customer was always right. She was always at the top and received bonuses because of it.



Stay at home mom it is.

Which leads me to what I think a lot of the population is doing.


1. If you’re a man, don’t get married
2. Have a couple kids
3. Use your mom’s address for your mail
4. Buy a house
5. Rent your house to your girlfriend and your two kids
6. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for the rent on the 3 bedroom home
7. Have your girlfriend sign up for Obamacare
8. Your girlfriend gets to go to college free as a single mother
9. She also gets $400 a month for food stamps
10. She gets a free cell phone
11. She also gets a cash grant to help pay for heating costs
12. Move into your house with her, but keep your mom’s address for your mail
13. Each of you can claim one child on your taxes so now you both get to claim head of household credit ($1295)
14. Have your girlfriend get apermanent disability for “marked difficulties maintaining concentration” or having a “back pain.”


.

That's the truth and groom each other on how to do this. You total all that aid and it's still more than minimum wage if it was $10/hr.

and the kids qualify for obamacare , qualify for headstart programs etc. Around here most girls got 2 kids before 18.

 

[SLOPAR72]

That's the truth and groom each other on how to do this. You total all that aid and it's still more than minimum wage if it was $10/hr.

and the kids qualify for obamacare , qualify for headstart programs etc. Around here most girls got 2 kids before 18.

It is disgusting that we have a system in place which enables people to do what I just read above..... I now pay for their lifestyle.... I hope one day in my lifetime there will be a correction to all this. Probably not but a person sure can have hope....

JW

 

[ramenth]

The issue with raising the minimum wage is that it will always be that. Minimum. As the cost of goods increase to cover the wage, the wage itself is offset by the cost of goods, leading to a never ending cycle.

Minimum wage isn't a living wage. That's one of the biggest fallacies that's been placed in front of us.

It's also a cash grab. Take a look at the NY's new minimum wage increase for restaurant workers. Okay, a waitress or waiter was working for $2 an hour, offset by tips. Tips, usually in cash, that can be made to disappear from Uncle Sam. By increasing the mandatory wage, that person now has to declare that income. Instant taxes.

Sure, the argument could be made that the waitstaff should do the honest thing and declare the taxes at the end of the year. For anyone who's ever had to do the bookkeeping on a business (and at this point, that's exactly what the waitstaff has become - a contracted business) then you know what an accounting nightmare this is.

But, that's not how it works. That money coming into the waiter's pocket in undeclared income. Now, with the wage increase, the state will be making bank. Interesting that a broke *** state like NY didn't increase the wages across the board, but focused on an industry that has a lot of undeclared cash laying around.

To think that the government is raising a wage for the benefits of the citizens is pure unadulterated bullshit. The government is raising the wage to increase taxes on the lower wage worker. Let that sit in for a minute.

 

[jimmer]

All the wage talk .
Well if we were not only supporting ourselves , but supporting all the freeloaders , imigraints , and special interests .
It would not cost as much to live!!
Since the government have found a way to look like they care while
Forcing the middle class to shoulder it , while the rich get blamed and the freeloaders do nothing it costs middle class more to live as the divide gets greater!!
To me we are just sailing toward socialism and the masses are to ignorant to see it !!!

 

[273]

Can't believe how callus some are that begrudge someone making a decent wage.
$15 isn't a living wage far from it but at least a respectable wage. Why is freeloader talk coming up were talking about people that work and might be stuck at the bottom for moment or forever. But more and more families depend on low wage jobs. Doesn't make you a freeloader.

Now I'm sure a lot of you that think it's unfair that they raise minimum wage also probably think it's unfair that jobs are leaving to Mexico and the like. But you can use your own argument against ya. Obviously your over paid unskilled labour don't be so greedy a company has to make a profit it's not the job of the compay to make sure you can live on what they pay you. If you lowered your wages equal to Mexicans problem solved. A lot can be said about most jobs. Most are semi skilled at best unless your a chemical engineer or similar with a little training you probably can be replaced for a cheaper worker. Look at construction lot of over paid people there to. My buddy makes $35 an hour driving cement truck hard job? Hardly that might be my next move. A lot of you probably could take a good pay cut with your reasoning. Is your job really that harder than someone working is a sub shop ? I've worked in a pizza place it can be pretty stressful at times and would say harder than driving a cement truck but paid a lot less.

 

[ramenth]

Ok sales tax and payroll tax so your customers and employees paid their taxes.
And companies get tax incentives ah so hard done by

One of the things that you're failing to take into account is that the company is the one who's making the investment to stay in business. The company is the one who's paying for the R&D, the marketing, the taxes, the property taxes, the regulations, as well as equipment, overhead, etc.

Here's an idea. Instead of looking to mandate what the cost of wages are, why isn't the government looking at doing what the only thing government is in control of and that's scaling back a lot of the overhead.

Did you know, that here in NY, the property taxes on business aren't set to the value of the property, but what the value of the business might be on the property? That's one of the reasons for commercial zoning. It's not to put businesses in a group, per se, it's so that the piece of property can now be taxed commercially, which is astronomical compared to residential.

You talk about rentals. Here, rentals are taxed as for profit property. That leads to a cost increase on the price of rent. Yet, I don't hear people screaming for the scale back of taxes, instead I hear about the increase in wages.

Okay, so I decided to open up a body shop. Reasonable enough of an example.

I buy a piece of property that's available. Right out of the gate, my mortgage payments are higher, because of the commercial zoning. I escrow my property taxes. Because I'm not commercial, my taxes are two to three times higher than if I worked out of my garage on the side.

My utility rates are twice the cost because I'm in a commercial zoned area. And that's not because of the greedy utility company, it's because the government mandates that I pay more because now, thanks to my usage, I'm considered environmentally unfriendly. I do everything I can to make sure my usage is low, within reason, yet I still have to pay more out the door to begin with. Then, on top of that, I have fees and taxes attached to my bill every month that's twice as high as residential.

So, now I'm ready to do business. Oh, but I'm not. I still have to buy a booth. That booth has to be government certified through the EPA and then I get to pay the state government for my privilege of being in business by having DEC come out and certify the booth. That's an additional cost. And, I had to pay the local government a fee for being actually building the damned thing on premises in the building permits. The building permits cover my ***, in case of fire, the insurance company can see that I had it approved by the local code enforcer, who may or may not be qualified. Better I hire and engineer to sign off on it. That's an additional cost.

Now, I need to buy my signage from the State the says I'm actually legal to do business. That costs more money. And it's money I have to pay every two years to the DMV as being a repair shop.

Then I'm ready to do business.

I've hired a couple of guys to be out in the shop while I deal with all the front end work. My first quarter has passed. Time to sit down with my accountant and go over everything.

Okay, I can right the booth off. But only a certain percentage of it. But, still I'll take every penny I can get. I can't write off my personal tools because I didn't spend enough on personal tools to be able to write those off. I sit down and match what my employees have paid in taxes, SS, and Medicaid/Medicare, plus the extra cost of having employees: comp, unemployment insurance, health care. And because I get a weekly paycheck out of my work, I get the privilege of paying twice for myself. I have to withhold my own taxes and then cover what my business has to match on those taxes.

I also have inventory. I decided to go with a paint mix station and keep three or four cases of bondo and primers and tack rags and tape and paper and... on hand so that I won't run short in the middle of a job. I get to pay taxes on my inventory, too. Oh, I could send it back to the vendor before the end of the quarter, but he'll have to pay taxes on it, too, and then I'll just have to re-order. Not worth the hassle, so I'll include that in the check I have to cut.

Do you understand what it means to actually be in business? What the weight of being in business actually is? Yet, for all that all I hear is "living wage!" but never any cuts in the areas that government acutally has any weight in.

I don't know... maybe if I didn't have to jump through hoops and pay taxes on top of taxes and fees on top of regulations, I might actually be able to "share the wealth" and pay my guys a few extra cents per hour, all the while trying to maintain 5% margin. But, you're right. I should just go ahead and cut my margin to 2.5% and pay more. In the meantime, that additional 2.5% might be all there is between solvency and bancrupcy.

 

[ramenth]

Is your job really that harder than someone working is a sub shop ?

Yes, actually, it is.

I've put my body through all kinds of abuse to gain the skills and knowledge that I have. My job doesn't just involve physical labor, but a lot of mental skills that are needed to diagnose and repair.

Oh, look, Robert. The vibratory air tools and reaching over your head for hours at a time have meant that you've sacrificed your quality of life in being able to use your left arm like you did when you first entered into the job. You have a hard time walking on most days. Two bad knees from kneeling on concrete floors taking doors apart for years that you're now feeling pain in your hips for because you're compensating for your knees being bad.