Honing with Torque Plates - How Important?

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Haney

Haney

www.carsonandironmt.com
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The local shop that I am planning on using for the maching of my SB stroker, does not have any torque plates for a SB mopar. How important in a street engine is it to hone with plates? This shop has built or done the machining on several SB mopar stroker motors that I know of personally. Each of these engines run very well.

If I check the bores before assembly and they are round all the way down, what am I loosing (HP, reliability, etc.) by not honing with a plate. I know the concept of the plate is to simulate the head and any cylinder deflection by bolting a head on ....

Is there a place to RENT such plates?

Thanks for any input....
 
A basic rebuild could do without them, the rebuild could go years without issue.

Done with them, the rebuild could go decades. This proceedure also helps the engine make all the power designed into it. Like the desk top dyno sim assume's, a well built engine making all the power it can.

I think Huges engines rents them, I think I seen them for sale from Comp cams or Powerhouse tools. DANG! Where did I see them for sale.

MoPar used to sell them.
 
Haney said:
Yes I do! That is not the question......
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You answered your own question here.

"I know the concept of the plate is to simulate the head and any cylinder deflection by bolting a head on ...."


If you are spending the money to have a stroker built I wouldn't expect corners to be cut on something like this.
 
It's important enough that I bought a plate for LA and B wedge mopars at $375ea so my shop could do it. Not using a torque plate gets you as good as the factory or stock engine technology from the 70s can. If they don't have a torque plate, are they still using a boring bar, a manual stroke honing cabinet and stones rather than plateau honing? there's "good enough" and there's "up to date". You will lose power and life not using the plate. That's proven fact.
 
I will not build any engine, stock or modified, without a t/plate. I own a small block & big block plate. I just leave them with my machinist.
 
Um... if this shop is doing several, shouldn't they buy the plates themselves? I mean, that's how businesses work, you invest in the capital you need to run your business and make more money... right? I'd put it on them.
 
Super T said:
Um... if this shop is doing several, shouldn't they buy the plates themselves? I mean, that's how businesses work, you invest in the capital you need to run your business and make more money... right? I'd put it on them.
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I let my shop guy keep them, because I'm his prime customer for Mopar projects. He also cuts me a deal on my personal work.
 
Haney said:
The local shop that I am planning on using for the maching of my SB stroker, does not have any torque plates for a SB mopar. How important in a street engine is it to hone with plates? This shop has built or done the machining on several SB mopar stroker motors that I know of personally. Each of these engines run very well.

If I check the bores before assembly and they are round all the way down, what am I loosing (HP, reliability, etc.) by not honing with a plate. I know the concept of the plate is to simulate the head and any cylinder deflection by bolting a head on ....

Is there a place to RENT such plates?

Thanks for any input....
Click to expand...

This guy has done several mopars and did not use a torque plate on them..hmmm,hope your motor comes out ok..
 
Before I went to work for Detroit Diesel I was a Machine Toolbuilder for 13 years. I helped build and install several cylinderblock lines at Ford plants that did all of the metal cutting for the block. Another company did the hone machines , Gehring was the name of the company and they did the crank and cylinderbore honing. Three different engine lines 3.0 Cleveland, 3.5 Lima, 4.6 Romeo and none of them used a torque plate. I always thought that was interesting. Must depend on application or severe duty use. Jayson
 
I guess what remains to be explained is just what kind of cylinder distortion we're talking about.

I agree if it makes a difference it should always be done.
But how much of a difference are we talking?
 
I don't know that anyone has ever measured the distortion, but for the small diff in labor charge, it's a MUST on a Hi-Po motor build! Just find a shop that already has a plate for your motor and you'll be surprised that it's not much more than a "standard" hone.

Here's a tip from a Stock-S/S record holder. Always do the valve job on heads with them torqued down to a torque plate...think about that one!
 
On a small block the difference is about .0003-.0015 depending on the position you measure when you check the finished bore diameter near the head bolt holes without a head in place. The problem with not using the plate is the top of the bore where the rings are sealing has the highest pressures. That change in bore wall shape in that area can make it impossible for the rings to properly seal near the bolts. The distortion can also be simulated using some spacers and the same fasteners you're using for the heads, plus the same type of gasket. The load of the fastener will deform the iron around it. Remember the block is not a solid casting. It's hollow. So as you pull or distort one spot, the adjacent areas deform as well. The amount of deformation depends on the material, the fastener, and the load. Big blocks don't deform as much because they have 5 head bolts per hole and are torqued at 10 foot pounds less. So the load is more evenly distributed around the bore. Small blocks move a lot IMO.
 
hi, the only drawback, is you have to select the head gasket and it's the one you will use always. also, the mains have to be torqued with hone plate for correct results!! usually small blocks pull .001 -.003 depending on casting. another thing, don't torque at 95 #, use 85 # with moly lube, has less distortion and same clamping power. after the plate is torqued, the block needs to set for 12-24 hours to settle at final shape, then hone it. just food for thought. just bolting them on then hone right away gives very poor results.
 
perfacar said:
hi, the only drawback, is you have to select the head gasket and it's the one you will use always. also, the mains have to be torqued with hone plate for correct results!! usually small blocks pull .001 -.003 depending on casting. another thing, don't torque at 95 #, use 85 # with moly lube, has less distortion and same clamping power. after the plate is torqued, the block needs to set for 12-24 hours to settle at final shape, then hone it. just food for thought. just bolting them on then hone right away gives very poor results.
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Yup. This is why just the honing costs me "so much". The only way to get quality is know what it is and use a shop that cares enough to produce it. Interestingly, just by changing the wall finish the shop I use has found 40+hp on an engine that used to make 455hp with a Nascar 2bbl. The honing is that important.
 
Yes it's important for a race or serious performance engine. Stock not so much but I'd bet the factories could get better emissions compliance if they honed with plates simply because the ring seal is better. My friends 3.9 Dakota stocker picked up .7 with no other changes other than a short block honed with torque plates. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
moper said:
On a small block the difference is about .0003-.0015 depending on the position you measure when you check the finished bore diameter near the head bolt holes without a head in place. The problem with not using the plate is the top of the bore where the rings are sealing has the highest pressures. That change in bore wall shape in that area can make it impossible for the rings to properly seal near the bolts. The distortion can also be simulated using some spacers and the same fasteners you're using for the heads, plus the same type of gasket. The load of the fastener will deform the iron around it. Remember the block is not a solid casting. It's hollow. So as you pull or distort one spot, the adjacent areas deform as well. The amount of deformation depends on the material, the fastener, and the load. Big blocks don't deform as much because they have 5 head bolts per hole and are torqued at 10 foot pounds less. So the load is more evenly distributed around the bore. Small blocks move a lot IMO.
Click to expand...

perfacar said:
hi, the only drawback, is you have to select the head gasket and it's the one you will use always. also, the mains have to be torqued with hone plate for correct results!! usually small blocks pull .001 -.003 depending on casting. another thing, don't torque at 95 #, use 85 # with moly lube, has less distortion and same clamping power. after the plate is torqued, the block needs to set for 12-24 hours to settle at final shape, then hone it. just food for thought. just bolting them on then hone right away gives very poor results.
Click to expand...

moper said:
Yup. This is why just the honing costs me "so much". The only way to get quality is know what it is and use a shop that cares enough to produce it. Interestingly, just by changing the wall finish the shop I use has found 40+hp on an engine that used to make 455hp with a Nascar 2bbl. The honing is that important.
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Thanks guys!!! This is exactly what I was looking to learn.
 
The answer is simple. Do you want your cylinders round and straight before you put it together, or after? Honing Plates are how I choose a machine shop. If they don't use them or know what they are, I go elsewhere. I also have my own torque plates for a lot of engines. I feel they are that important.
 
I was looking into a machine shop around here for a rebuild, A guy I work with recommended them as he lives next door to them and they have been around since 1958. I asked if they use a honing/torque plate when they do the cylinder boring, he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and he knows more than me because he's been doing it forever, he told me I don't know anything because i'm a gearhead and to quit reading the hot rod magazines and to never come back! Time to keep searching for a good machine shop in the sacramento area.....
 
MrBelvedere2 said:
I was looking into a machine shop around here for a rebuild, A guy I work with recommended them as he lives next door to them and they have been around since 1958. I asked if they use a honing/torque plate when they do the cylinder boring, he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and he knows more than me because he's been doing it forever, he told me I don't know anything because i'm a gearhead and to quit reading the hot rod magazines and to never come back! Time to keep searching for a good machine shop in the sacramento area.....
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Should have told him to..get with the times Pops!LOL
 
Haney said:
The local shop that I am planning on using for the maching of my SB stroker, does not have any torque plates for a SB mopar. How important in a street engine is it to hone with plates? This shop has built or done the machining on several SB mopar stroker motors that I know of personally. Each of these engines run very well.

If I check the bores before assembly and they are round all the way down, what am I loosing (HP, reliability, etc.) by not honing with a plate. I know the concept of the plate is to simulate the head and any cylinder deflection by bolting a head on ....

Is there a place to RENT such plates?

Thanks for any input....
Click to expand...




I used a honing plate when my engine was done in 1988. Even back then most engine machine shops did not have a honing plate. I think I bought mine from Ed Hamburger. Oh and FYI if you plan to use it on a 340 as I did you'll have to have the holes opened up becuse of the larger bore in a 340. Anyway like Bill Clinton said " IIIIIIII feel you pain" LOL
 
MrBelvedere2 said:
he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and he knows more than me because he's been doing it forever
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If anyone has a question and asks a "professional" and this is the best they can do... don't bother using them. Not a parts vendor, not a machine shop, nothing. EIther a person can tell you the why for a particular concept, or they really don't know the why and got lucky or copied someone. Just like the irritating ignorant 4yr old with "why? why? why?" if the pro can't guide you and explain the whys, move on.
 
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